Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

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Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

Postby Huck on 29 Mar 2012, 20:45

I've written this at Aeclectic since 29.01.2012. The development spans a longer time and has its twists and its improvements.
The original thread is reduced a little bit.

Added 2017:
At the begin of the research not all pictures of the Minchiate Francesi were known, so I add here the link to 2 full versions:

41-trumps-version
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b1 ... rk=21459;2
21 trumps version
http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/CadresFenetre ... hemindefer
The 42-trumps-version had added the card Chaos
Image

all three versions use different number rows

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(original old thread)

Minchiate Francesi - first half

There's some interest to clear the conditions of this unusual deck.

A playing card seller for old cards offers this information:
Le sommet de la vente pourrait bien être atteint avec le «Minchiate» de François
de Poillly, 2ème version, un jeu complet de 98 cartes, estimé 8 000 / 12 000
€. Le Minchiate est une forme florentine du tarot, où l’on a ajouté des atouts ;
très à la mode en Italie aux XVIIe et XVIIIe siècle, il séduisit François I de Poilly
qui en réalisa une version française à son retour à Paris, vers 1660. Son fils
François II a voulu « remettre de l’ordre » dans ces atouts « incohérents », d’où
cette nouvelle édition, connue en 2 exemplaires uniquement.

http://www.millon-associes.com/doc/CP-Carte-a-jouer-051111.pdf

Later COMMENT: I didn't realize immediately, that Depaulis participated in this publication of 2011. As with this it seems clear, that c. 1660 is likely a correct interpretation, I wouldn't have made so intensive arguments for it.

According this there existed 2 versions, one made by Francois I de Poilly (1623 - 1693) c. 1660 (after he had returned from Italy) ...

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Poilly .... French
http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/bio/p/poilly/biograph.html ... English

... a second (possibly modified) version by his son Francois II de Poilly (according some sources c. 1730).

http://books.google.de/books?id=P317zP85RtQC&pg=PA132&dq=francois+poilly&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uWEgT9TMO8zo8QOU9YWQDg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=francois%20poilly&f=false

A 3rd deck of a Francois de Poilly (III) exists from 1763 and it occasionally appears in the web ... this is a teaching deck with geographic pictures.
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?objectid=3336527&partid=1&searchText=poilly&fromADBC=ad&toADBC=ad&titleSubject=on&physicalAttribute=on&productionInfo=on&numpages=10&images=on&orig=%2fresearch%2fsearch_the_collection_database.aspx&currentPage=7

For the moment there exist only a few cards of the Minchiate Francesi in the web ... as far I know it. The series starts with the card 1 "Chaos", something, which was later repeated in the Etteilla deck of 1788.

Image
given as version of Francois II de Poilly

Image
with small differences to the card as given the version of 1789 by "Wicked Pack of Cards"

Other Minchiate Francesi cards I found ...

... at the page of Tarot passages ...
http://www.tarotpassages.com/francesi.htm

Two others in a pdf.file of Giordano Berti:
http://www.tarot-as-tarocchi.com/1.pdf

In the description of Tarot.org.il we find some pictures ...
http://www.tarot.org.il/Minchiate%20Francesi/
... and also some information about the content. From this limited information one can start some ideas, what this deck is about.
This I will do .. I've some experience to analyze such systems.

1.The chaos.
------------
2. The sun, Helios in the sun chariot pulled by four horses.
3. The moon, a woman with bow and arrow seated on a cloud with the moon at her back - possibly Artemis.
4. The stars, a feminine figure holding a scepter with a stars at it's top, seated on clouds against the background of the stars.
5. The world, an infant seated on concentric circles and holding a sandglass in his hand.


CHAOS and Sun, Moon, Star, World
(My comment) The latter 4 are somehow known as a group ... known in Italian Minchiate as cards 36-39 (also somehow in the Tarocchi as 17-18-19-21), and there these cards are between the "highest trumps". However, the row is disturbed, Minchiate has "36. Star, 37. Moon, 38. Sun, 39. World". And, however, the Minchiate Francesi has these cards at the begin of the series (2-5), not at the end as the usual Minchiate or Tarocchi. So one has to judge, that the designer has some other ideas about the row of the trumps than the Italian card makers.
So it's valuable to look, what the designer has put at the end ...

12 Months ... TIME ?
31. January, illustration of acquarius.
32. February, illustration of pisces.
33. March, illustration of aries.
34. April, illustration of taurus.
35. May, illustration of gemini.
36. June, illustration of cancer.
37. July, illustration of leo.
38. August, illustration of virgo.
39. September, illustration of libra.
40. October, illustration of scorpio.
41. November, illustration of sagittarius.
42. December, illustration of capricorn.


At the end of the row (31-42) the designer has the 12 months in connection to the zodiac. The zodiac ALSO is part of the usual Minchiate and it is located usually at the positions 24-35. But it is a little strange,that the months shall now be the "highest trumps" in this series ... or? And the months in the Minchiate Francesi are fibne sorted from January till December, and the zodiac in the usual Minchiate is in CHAOS ...
CHAOS ... there we have it, the major REASON. Somebody had taken care of the old "chaotic" system, and now - very well - everything is in Minchiate Francesi order.

At the next step we see the 4 elements at cards 5-9 ....

4 Elements

6. The element of air, a woman seated on clouds above a rural landscape.
7. The element of earth, a crowned woman seated on the earth beside fruits in a rural landscape.
8. The element of water, a woman in a sea-shell chariot pulled by two fish by the beach.
9. The element of fire, Perseus seated at a table holding a helmet, with a shield with Medusa's head or face on it.

... and these appear also in Minchiate at position 20-23, so that we have just a very simple "moving the blocks" from old Minchiate to Minchiate Francesi ...

39-36 ----> 2-5
35-24 ----> 31-42
23-20 ----> 6-9

... and a little bit "restore-the-order-operation". Well ... what's restored? The calendar, the time ... that seems to be the main topic.

We have 42 special cards in this game, instead of the usual 41 for a Minchiate. In the usual Minchiate there's a group of 20 (No. 1-15 + last 5) and another group of 20 (No. 16-35) and a Fool. Well, we might understand this as a model of Libra, with two scales with 20 elements and a tongue (the Fool) in the middle.

In this Minchiate Francesi we've now also identified a group of 20 (as shown above; No. 20-39), so very similar to one of 20-elements-groups used by the other Minchiate (No. 16-35), but not identical (3 theological virtues + Prudentia) are replaced by Sun-Moon-Star-Earth). But it are now 42 cards, so we have there either a 20-elements-group plus a 22-elements-group, or we should suspect, that there's another Libra model, with 2 scales of 20 elements and with two Fools as the tongue.

Now we have as information, that the Minchiate Francesi was made c. 1660 or c. 1730 (well, it's no sure, that both models were identical ... it's just, that I'm missing betting information).

For the Tarocco Siciliano we have, that it had TWO FOOLS and we have the information, that it was introduced to Sicily in 1662 - recently Franco Pratesi pointed to an article in a Sicilian magazine, in which it was declared ...

1630: Girolamo Sanna dies in Palermo and among the goods found at his factory there are "200 figuri di tarocchi tagliati et pinti" (200 figures [probably, but not certainly, the triumphal cards of the pack] of tarots cut and painted).

http://trionfi.com/kalos-tarocco-siciliano

... so the value of the "introduction to Sicily" is diminished, but it might well be, that a "new version" of Tarocco appeared in 1662, which had as one of its special features "two fools" (well - it might well be, that this was invented later or earlier, but ...).

Trionfi and Tarocchi cards had their fashions. We have often observed, that specific characteristics appeared in different decks around the same time. If one deck form developed "2 fools", and the same "2 fools" appeared in another deck, it's somehow logical, that the production is near to each other in time.

These are the two Fools in Tarocco Siciliano, modern version:

Image

Image

These seem to be the two Fools of the Minchiate Francesi:

Image
Card 1: CHAOS

Image
Card 29: MOMUS

For CHAOS in Greek mythology we have ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_%28cosmogony%29
For Hesiod and the early Greek Olympian myth (8th century BC), Chaos was the "vast and dark" void from which Nyx emerged.


For Nyx (= night) we have, that she had various children ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyx_%28mythology%29
In Hesiod's Theogony, Nyx is born of Chaos; her offspring are many, and telling. With Erebus the deity of shadow and darkness, Nyx gives birth to Aether (atmosphere) and Hemera (day). Later, on her own, Nyx gives birth to Momus (blame), Moros (doom), Thanatos (death), Hypnos (sleep), the Oneiroi (dreams), the Hesperides, the Keres and Moirai (Fates), Nemesis (retribution), Apate (deception), Philotes (friendship), Geras (age), and Eris (strife).

... and between them Momus.

For Momus we have, that he became a favored topic by Lucian, a satiric writer of 2nd century, who started to become popular in 15th century (in Trionfi card time) and that famous Leon Battista Alberti, who got the love to Lucian from Guarino (famous Ferrarese teacher), wrote a wonderful amusing work "Momus" between 1443-1450, short after he had been a regular visitor in Leonello's Ferrara (just in the short period, when Trionfi cards were mentioned for the time (1442).
Inside the Alberti text appears Momus' praise of the role of the beggar ... and then the first known Fool in PMB-Tarocchi had more the outfit of a beggar than a funny Fool ...

Image

... and also in the Mantegna Tarocchi ...

Image

... and also in Tarocchi Siciliano as already shown:

Image

For another type of Fool, the man with drums and pipe ...

Image
Hofämterspiel 1455

... presented by Dürer himself ...
Image
Dürer 1503, Jabacher Altar

... we have for the Rovereto-Fool, that he suddenly got wings ...

Image
Rovereto Fool, maybe c. 1600

... which in a "not easy recognizable state" still existed in 19th century Tarocco Siciliano:

Image
early 19th century woodcut block, modified for better recognition

For the Tarocco Siciliano it seems clear, that there's a difference between a good fool and a poor fool. This good Fool with wings seems to have developed from the Fama in Minchiate, also with wings ...

Image

... and music instrument (trumpets).

For the Tarocchi development in Sicily we have, that Florentine Minchiate cards played a larger role ... but the deck was called Gallerini there, likely cause the word "Minchiate" had in Southern Italy a sexual association. The same word Gallerini (as a card deck) appeared then in Genova, so "nearly in France" (but actually in Spanish hands since 1528, as also Sicily was in Spanish hands since end of 13th century) . The preference for Gallerini in Sicily went so far, that Sicilian Tarocco was addressed as "little Gallerini".

Well, the background of all this should be, that JUST in 1660 the young French king Louis XIV married Maria Theresa of Spain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Theresa_of_Spain


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(will proceed)
User avatar
Huck
member
 

Re: Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

Postby Huck on 29 Mar 2012, 20:49

Contradictions by Romain Merlin (1861)

Image

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Image

http://books.google.de/books?id=XQ0IAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA130#v=onepage&q&f=false

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A picture, given at this page ...
http://neartexchange.com/neart/artist/1349
... contains the same address as given by Romain Merlin (Poilly, Rue Saint-Jacques à Saint-Benoist)

Engraving after Annibal Caracci; Thies: See Hecquet, 17; Brandes, 1p.57; 1st state, with the inscription on a stone in the landscape[l.l.] "AnnibalCarratius pinxit. F. Poilly Scuypsit cum Pr.Re. A Paris, Rue St. Jacques a l'image St. Benoist"


Image

Image

The address is already given to Francois Poilly the Elder. But Francois II de Poilly ALSO used this address in his later life (a greater earlier part he lived and worked in Lyon).

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NEXT POST


Further Info from Depaulis (1984)

There was an exhibition 1984 and a catalog was produced "Tarot, jeu et magie". A major author seems to have been Thierry Depaulis, but also others are mentioned. The relevant passages are from p. 86/87

Snippet view at books.google.com
http://books.google.de/books?hl=de&id=i_kQAQAAIAAJ&q=poilly#search_anchor

Image
Image

There are two major decks mentioned (a version with 41/97 trumps/cards and a version with 42/98 trumps/cards) and a third, which possibly is shortened. All three versions have differences in the sorting of the trumps.
The article gives the two major versions to "early 18th century" (likely from this developed the otherwise now far spread interpretation "made c. 1730").

Above is given the text for the deck version, which was reported by Romain Merlin in 1861 (see the second post above).
I've given in red the passage, in which the author notes, that the engraver should have been the Francois de Poilly le jeune (1665-1741), who had a printing shop in rue St. Jacques à St. Benoist. He is said to have worked in Rome in his youth ... I don't know, from which source this latter info is given (is it on some paper connected to the deck and so part of the document? Or just from research for the person?).

From other sources it's relative clear, that Francois de Poilly the elder (1623-1693) had indeed been in Rome from 1649-1656 and had worked there successfully. Also it's known, that he already used the given address (see post 2 in this thread).
From Francois the younger I found a relative extended biography and the journey to Rome and his work there isn't mentioned. In this biography Francois the younger was born 3rd of November 1666 and married 1691 and then he was more or less in Lyon. The shop in Paris seems to have been in possession of his sister "Anne". The sister died once (or became inactive) and Francois returned back to Paris ... somehow between 1720-30. Likely from this condition developed the dating "c. 1730".
The biography is given ...
http://books.google.de/books?id=P317zP85RtQC&pg=PA132&dq=francois+poilly&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uWEgT9TMO8zo8QOU9YWQDg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=francois%20poilly&f=false

Well, and we have then the already mentioned playing card dealer (post 1), who states ...

A playing card seller for old cards offers this information:
Le sommet de la vente pourrait bien être atteint avec le «Minchiate» de François
de Poillly, 2ème version, un jeu complet de 98 cartes, estimé 8 000 / 12 000
€. Le Minchiate est une forme florentine du tarot, où l’on a ajouté des atouts ;
très à la mode en Italie aux XVIIe et XVIIIe siècle, il séduisit François I de Poilly
qui en réalisa une version française à son retour à Paris, vers 1660. Son fils
François II a voulu « remettre de l’ordre » dans ces atouts « incohérents », d’où
cette nouvelle édition, connue en 2 exemplaires uniquement.

http://www.millon-associes.com/doc/CP-Carte-a-jouer-051111.pdf

According this there existed 2 versions, one made by Francois I de Poilly (1623 - 1693) c. 1660 (after he had returned from Italy) ...


Putting this all together, it's my impression, that the playing card dealer offers the better interpretation."Something" already happened in c. 1660.

----------
It follows the other deck description:
Image
Image

The article notes, that the "second version" has changed the numbers of the first. And it has added a new card .... the Chaos card.
Further it notes, that a Museum in England (Bowes Museum in Durham ... I found it in the web, using the online search catalog it didn't offer the Poilly cards) has a deck in a book
with Spanish Bourbon heraldic (if my poor French interprets this information correctly). As the Spanish Bourbon dynasty came to life in 1700, this playing card book should have made "after 1700".
These cards are given in a book of Roger Tilley (History of Playing Cards, 1972, p. 67-71).

Then the article refers to a 3rd different arrangement of the cards in the Collection Hennin ... I searched for them and I had luck, I could find some of them. Wonderful ... I found 37 cards, that is 21 trumps (1-21; including a Fool = Momus = Nr. 16) and 16 court cards, presenting the 4 continents America, Asia, Africa and Europe ...

Image
King of Asia

Take a look ... it is rather nice.
http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/CadresFenetre?O=IFN-8409718&I=8&M=chemindefer


I made a list of the trumps with the names of the cards, as given ... and made a short description. as I don't have the other decks for comparison, I don't know, if all motifs appear also in the other deck. But some do.

01 Mercure (flying)
02 L'amour (blind flying Eros with arrow and flowers)
03 L'Esperence (woman at small island with big anchor; Hope)
04 La Force (woman carrying a column)
05 La Fortune Woman standing on wheel in the sea; wings at her feet)
06 La Justice (woman with Libra and sword ... in the background a city view)
07 La Charité (woman with two children)
08 La Prudence (woman with mirror, snake)
09 Les Ages, la Vieillesse
10 Age Viril (hero with sword and shield and dragon; "Golden Vlies" in a tree)
11 Ages Adolescences (3 young women and a young sitting men reading from a book)
12 Ages l'Enfance (three naked children playing "hiding")
13 Element l'eau (woman on shell drawn by two dolphins)
14 Element Feu (man with hammer, gorgon-shield and helmet in work; smith)
15 Element Terre (woman in landscap with fruits and with baton and crown)
16 Momus (Fool) ****
17 Les Etoiles (Woman sitting at cloud with night heaven and star-scepter)
18 La Lune (Diane sitting on crescent above a cloud, with arrow)
19 Le Soleil (Helios at chariot with 4 horses)
20 La Renommé (Angel with trmpet; Fame)
21 Le Monde (putti sitting on globe, playing with sand-glass; Time?)

---------------

.... well, that's not all
(will proceed)

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Added:

**** I wrote above "16 Momus Fool", following Depaulis suggestions and the order offered by the presenting webpage.
However, I noted, that the expected card at position 16 should be "Air", which is missing in the series 15 Terra - 14 Feu - 13 Water. From this one likely has to conclude, that "Air" is indeed just missing and Momus is simply the "not numbered Fool".

Image

In contrast in version 2 we have Momus numbered: "29"

Image

The state of Momus in the first version I don't know (no picture)

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Next Post


As I wrote, Depaulis (or the author) noted, that Roger Tilley wrote a "History of Playing Cards" and had 4 pages of pictures with the Spanish-Bourbon edition once housed in the Bowes Museum.

I find a book with this title in Google Snippet view ...

http://books.google.de/books?hl=de&id=2dITAQAAIAAJ
192 pages

My Snippet searches didn't deliver anything, which reminds me on this deck :-(.

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Image

The knight of Carreau is said to carry a note of the producer .. I don't see it.

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I found this image (the yellow part is my work):

Image

I copied the description:

Type : image fixe, monographie
Auteur(s) : Lescouvé, François (16..?-1666 ). Graveur
Titre(s) : LE / COMMERCE / DE / LA FRANCE / Auec les quatre parties du / Monde, et l'establissement : de toutes sorte [¦sic¦] de Manu- / factures es- / tablies sous / le Regne / de nostre / Puissant / Monarque / Louis / XIIII. [Image fixe] : [estampe] / F. Lescouué. Sculp.
Publication : A Paris, chez / NICOLAS POILLY, / Rüe S.¦t¦ Iacques, / la Belle Image.
Éditeur : Poilly, Nicolas de (1627-1696)
Description matérielle : 1 est. (almanach) : burin (partie principale) . , en noir, calendrier typogr. en noir et rouge, impr. sur la f.

Note(s) : Titre sur une feuille de papier tenue par l'une des figures féminines de la partie inf. . - Mention du graveur en bas de la partie inf., à g. . - Mention de l'éditeur gravée dans un médaillon en bas, au centre de la partie inf.
Réf. bibl. : Duplessis, II, p. 66, t. XLVII, n°4318. - Champier, p. 92. - Lothe (N. de Poilly), 163
L'almanach est composé de 2 feuilles tirées de 2 éléments d'impression et collées.
Sujet(s) : Louis XIV (roi de France ; 1638-1715)
Marie-Thérèse (reine de France ; 1638-1683)
Henriette-Anne d'Angleterre (1644-1670)
Orléans, Philippe (1640-1701 ; duc d')
Condé, Louis de Bourbon (1621-1686 ; prince de)
Condé, Henri Jules de Bourbon (1643-1709 ; prince de)
Dentelle
Broderie
Commerce
Insignes royaux
Manufactures -- Allégories
Manufactures -- Instruments
France -- Allégories
Afrique -- Allégories
Asie -- Allégories
Amérique -- Allégories
Europe -- Allégories


The part, which interests us, is the yellow part, noted in the description with "Auec les quatre parties du / Monde" ... well, this is theme of the Poilly decks (4 continents Asia, America, Africa, Europe), as far the group of the small Arcana is concerned.
The engraver is not one of the Poilly brothers, but "Lescouvé, François", who dies in the year 1666. To this year is also given the production, which in this case likely not means, that it was really done this year (but at least it should mean "1666 or earlier").
As editor is given Nicolas Poilly.

Nicolas had stayed in Paris, the brother Francois was in Italy long years. Although it's said, that Francois had been the greater artist than Nicolas, I found much commissions for Nicolas in the relevant time and less for Francois. The commissions are often portraits of very high ranked persons.
In 1665 Francois (4 years older than Nicholas) got some acceptance at the king's court, this might have changed something.

Well, I'll leave this aside for the moment, cause I detected another CHAOS and this looks of some importance, so that the phenomenon of some Indians, Negroes, Osman etc. at the court of Louis XIV gives the impression of a minor detail.

************

There once was an artist ...

Abraham van Diepenbeck (perhaps 1599-1675)
http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Abraham_Van_Diepenbeck
http://words.fromoldbooks.org/Chalmers-Biography/d/diepenbeck-abraham-van.html
http://gluedideas.com/content-collection/english-cyclopedia/Abraham-Van-Diepenbeck.html

... who made designs for engraving artists, and one of these was ...

Cornelis Bloemaert II (perhaps 1603 – September 28, 1692)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelis_Bloemaert?oldid=cur
http://books.google.de/books?id=mmAbAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA216&lpg=PA216&dq=diepenbeck+bloemart&source=bl&ots=7iNhUnxCNu&sig=2gxWqTJqYU7ejlxG58game8wgTo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QhQoT9vAAbCW0QXlnNCPBQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=diepenbeck%20bloemart&f=false

.. and the time, when he delivered some specific 58 (or 59 or 60) designs ranges from 1633-1663 (you see ... all is chaos), but it is clear, that specific engravings carry the year number 1655 and appeared in a book published 1655 in Paris.

Bloemhart himself lived in Rome since 1633 (so it is said, what this really means, might be a little different, cause of Chaos nothing is sure). There he was the master of Francois Poilly the elder, whom we already know as the probable producer of the Poilly decks. Who is said to have been in Rome 1649-1656.

The book now from 1655 is a translation of Ovid's Metamorphoses by Michel de Marolles and the 58 (or 59 or 60) engravings naturally presents scenes from the Metamorphoses.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_de_Marolles
Michel de Marolles is NOT an unknown man in the scene of Tarot, but ... his father played Tarot, he got the commission to write the first French Tarot rules 1637, he published these rules 1655, he wrote a ballet with living Tarot cards in 1457, and last, not least, he became the greatest engraving collector, and his collection became the base for all these royal engravings, which stayed from this engraving glamor of French productions of this time, so likely we would NOT know for instance the Vievil or Noblet Tarot without Marolles. and he had close contact to the French Gonzaga's and these are under close suspicion to have done Tarocchi propagation in France.

So, a great man and also great in his Tarot engagement, and it's really not strange, that Nicolas Poilly, brother of Francois, made also an engraving of Marolles.

Ovid's Metamorphoses now stood at the begin of Tarot, cause the figure of Daphne appeared in the Michelino deck and had been likely the major figure in it. An the Michelino deck is the "oldest Tarot" or better "oldest Trionfi deck, as far we know it (before 1425). In the Diepenbeck-Bloemart-Marolles version Daphne looked in this way:

Image

Now what's the point with Francois Poilly in the story? If Bloemhart was really in Rome and managed to work for Marolles in Paris, then Poilly as "pupil" likely had a job in his workshop.
As the master of a shop likely had a lot to do with management and selling and all these more important details of business life, we actually might assume, that a lot of the work was done by the master pupil, whose name stayed in the background. So a lot of the black lines in these engravings might have been done by Poilly. 58 pictures of the realized quality is a lot of stuff and not been done in a few days, so actually an artist might get a lot of personal relations to the object, that he realizes. And the first object in this metamorphoses project is this one ... who is astonished ...

Image

... CHAOS ... in a much better quality than it was later realized as a playing card deck by Poilly. Well, there's the problem, that there is not so much place at a playing card, that's a practical problem.

CHAOS ... the first of the "figures" for Ovid, the first for the Marolles project, the first for Poilly (twice), the first for Etteilla. It can't be accident.

And inside this realization, that there is a context between both productions (Marolles edition and Poilly deck editions) there appears a number accident. 58 pictures in the Marolles version (I counted them), 58 picture cards (42 "trumps" + 16 court cards) in the 42-special-cards version of the Poilly decks.

This coincidence leads to the idea, that possibly there once had been a real Minchiate deck, which used the 58 Ovid stories to have a deck with 98 cards, 40 number cards as usual and 58 Ovid stories. Well, this is fiction, but reality is, that indeed there might have been decks, which stayed totally unknown to us, also for 17th century and likely even later.
And that, what we know isn't too far from this fiction.

Stefano della Bella made famous education playing cards for the young king Louis XIV, then 6 years old, in 1644. Between them is a jeu des fables (though 52 cards) ... many of these stories are from Ovid. Here is Daphne:

Image

Here is Jason the Argonaut by della Bella:

Image

Jason the Argonaut by Ovid and Marolles:

Image

And Jason the Argonaut in the Poilly versions, though with a different title.

Image
And at this picture it's VERY clear, that this was taken from della Bella


And this is Arion, the musician, by della Bella ...

Image

... and in the Marolles edition ...

Image

... and a woman on dolphins by Poilly presenting the element water

Image

Here you find della Bella pictures, 1644
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_results.aspx?searchText=jeu+fables&fromADBC=ad&toADBC=ad&titleSubject=on&physicalAttribute=on&productionInfo=on&numpages=10&images=on&orig=%2fresearch%2fsearch_the_collection_database.aspx&currentPage=1

Here is Marolles: The temple of the Muses
http://books.google.de/books?id=e1ATAAAAQAAJ&dq=marolles+muses&source=gbs_navlinks_s .... 1676
http://www.archive.org/details/dutempledesmuses00maro ... 1655
This page is easier to handle for the pictures:
http://etext.virginia.edu/latin/ovid/TempleDesMuses.html

Here are the better Poilly pictures (version 3):
http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/CadresFenetre?O=IFN-8409718&I=8&M=chemindefer

Here is some orientation about the Ovid text:
http://www.123helpme.com/view.asp?id=20292
Here is complete text version. It starts with Caos, what else.
http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html
Second come the 4 Ages of man, but likely in a different meaning as 4 Ages in the Poilly version.

***********

... :-) ... Sorry, this is all rather much and might be a little confusing, but it isn't easy to get such complicated and much relationships tamed, especially as these engraver biographies are full of contradictions, and, as already expressed, somehow "chaotic".
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Re: Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

Postby Huck on 29 Mar 2012, 20:53

I've written meanwhile variously about the important role of the Poilly decks at other places. The two most relevant posts are likely here:

Petit Oracle des dames, c. 1807
POST #25
http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=3075765&highlight=poilly#post3075765

New at Trionfi.com
POST #203
http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=3048022&highlight=poilly#post3048022

****************

I searched for earlier "Chaos"-Iconography. I found only this:

Image
http://www.emblems.arts.gla.ac.uk/french/emblem.php?id=FANa040

Barthélemy Aneau's Picta poesis,
Lyons,
Macé Bonhomme, 1552
http://www.emblems.arts.gla.ac.uk/french/books.php?id=FANa

The original woodblock goes back to an Ovid edition produced short before 1552.
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Re: Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

Postby Huck on 29 Mar 2012, 20:58

I made a list, uniting 3 known Poilly versions with 42, 41 and 22 cards with the possibly original version of Minchiate (nobody knows, which Minchiate version Poilly knew from his stay in Italy, actually I use the version, which was in use c. 1725).


MI P1 P2 P3
41 22 41 42
*************************

-- -- -- 01. Chaos
38 19 38 02. Sun (Chariot)
37 18 37 03. Moon
36 17 36 04. Star
39 21 39 05. World
23 16 23 06. Air (Juno)
22 15 21 07. Earth
21 13 22 08. Water
20 14 20 09. Fire (Vulcan)
-- 10 12 10. Iason (Age)
-- 12 14 11. Infancy
-- 11 13 12. Adolescence
-- 09 11 13. old Age
-- -- 15 14. Taste (Woman with fruits)
-- -- 17 15. Smell (Woman with flowers)
-- -- 16 16. Touch (young man riding eagle, Ganymede)
-- -- 19 17. Sight (Narcisse)
-- -- 18 18. Hearing (man playing violin, riding on fish, Arion)
17 08 05 19. Prudence
08 06 07 20. Justice
19 07 06 21. Charity
16 03 08 22. Hope
07 04 09 23. Strength
40 20 40 24. Fame (Angel)
-- 01 01 25. Mercury
-- -- 04 26. Bacchus
05 02 02 27. Love
-- -- 03 28. Venus
00 00 00 29. Momus (Fool)
09 05 10 30. Fortune
32 -- 35 31. January (Aquarius)
31 -- 34 32. February (Pisces)
27 -- 24 33. March (Aries or Capricorn)*
34 -- 32 34. April (Taurus)
35 -- 31 35. May (Gemini)
30 -- 30 36. June (Cancer)
33 -- 29 37. July (Leo)
25 -- 28 38. August (Virgo)
24 -- 26 39. September (Libra or Scorpio)*
26 -- 27 40. October (Scorpio or Libra)*
29 -- 25 41. November (Sagitarius)
28 -- 33 42. December (Capricorn or Aries)*

MI = original Minchiate
P1 = version with 22 trump cards
P2 = version with 41 trump cards
P3 = version with 42 trump cards

In my opinion it's not clear, which of the Poilly versions was first. Actually I would assume, that the elder Francois Poilly made all 42 cards and later generations of his family, if they did anything, just changed the numbers, and used the older engravings. And had some additional income by reproducing the decks.
Well, there's no guarantee, that we know all versions ... None of the versions was found in so many examples, that one can easily believe in a high-number-productions.

Poilly definitely replaced motifs of the earlier Minchiate.

It disappeared:
01 Magician
02 Eastern Emperor
03 Western Emperor
04 Grand-duke
06 Temperance
10 Chariot
11 Hermit
12 Hanging Man
13 Death
14 Devil
15 Tower
18 Fides
totally 12 cards

It were imported:
-- -- -- 01. Chaos
-- 01 01 25. Mercury
-- -- 03 28. Venus
-- -- 04 26. Bacchus
-- 10 12 10. Iason (Age)
-- 12 14 11. Infancy
-- 11 13 12. Adolescence
-- 09 11 13. old Age
-- -- 15 14. Taste (Woman with fruits)
-- -- 17 15. Smell (Woman with flowers)
-- -- 16 16. Touch (young man riding eagle, Ganymede)
-- -- 19 17. Sight (Narcisse)
-- -- 18 18. Hearing (man playing violin, riding on fish, Arion)
totally 13 cards

OBSERVATIONS:

The additional 13th card should be Chaos.

From Mercury (got twice the number 01) one might assume, that it replaced the Magician.

From the new card Sun it might be assumed, that it took up the ideas of the Minchiate Chariot (cause of Helios at the Chariot).

From the card World it might be assumed, that it took up as additional attributes the ideas of the Minchiate "Time" (cause of the hourglass)

As additional values were imported the 5 Senses + the 4 Ages, so that somehow "life as everybody knows it" was new.
For this very negative elements (Tower, Devil, Death, Hanged Man, suffering Age [= crippled Hermit]) disappeared. Should one assume, that these 5 replaced the 5 senses?

But what's then the 4 Ages?

For Iason might be assumed, that he replaced the triumphal charioteer.

The two missing virtues Temperance and Fides might have taken Adolescence and Infancy (?)

And it would stand "Age" as Hermit (again, and he was already identified as one of the senses)

**********

... :-) ... well, one has to think about it?
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Re: Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

Postby Huck on 29 Mar 2012, 21:06

In August 2011 I wrote about Boccaccio and his "Decamerone".
This was here.
http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=163397&highlight=boccaccio

I analyzed there something about a connection between the "7 virtues" and the general structure of the Decamerone text, which knows 10 story-tellers, which tell at 10 days in two weeks 100 stories (actually 101), each of them 10 and each one at each day, which was dedicated to storytelling.
3 of the story-tellers are men, 7 are women, and actually the 7 stand for the 7 virtues. But which woman refers to which virtue? Boccaccio had much fun to hide this relation.

That's a nice question and it found different answers in the commenting works of literature research. I've my own.

... :-) ... I'm proud of this analysis (though it isn't really finished), actually this is a master-piece according my not very humble opinion ....though I think, that nobody really noted, how good it indeed is.

***********
Boccaccio's Decamerone and its Virtues

Now, in my longer attempt to analyze the Poilly decks I detect similarity between some of the Poilly arrangements of the virtues and the virtues list in Boccaccio's Decamerone (as analyzed by myself).
Now I suspect, that somebody in Poilly's time detected that, what I detected, and embedded it into the new construction ... so that's rather interesting to myself.

I think, the basic order of the virtues (at least in the Decamerone) was this:

1. Temperantia = cardinal virtue = XXX
2. Spes = theological virtue = XXX
3. Prudentia = cardinal virtue = XXXi
4. Fides or Caritas = theological virtue = XXX
5. Fortitudo = cardinal virtue = XXX
6. Caritas or Fides = theological virtue = XXX
7. Iustitia = cardinal virtue = XXX

The three theological virtues are switched in an ordered manner between the 4 cardinal virtues. (about the position of Caritas and Fides I'm

Boccaccio gives this "correct order" at the last story-telling day, though with one "intended error".

If Boccaccio had made it simple, it would look this way:

1 Neifile = cardinal virtue Temperance
2 Elissa = theological virtue Hope
3 Filomena = cardinal virtue Prudentia
4 Lauretta = theological virtue Caritas or Fides
5 Emilia = cardinal virtue Fortitudo
6 Fiammeta = theological virtue Fides or Caritas
7 Pampinea = cardinal virtue Justice
----------------
8 Filostrato ... man
9 Panfilo ... man
10 Diodeo ... man

No, Boccaccio made it not simple. He made as speaker order for the last day:

1 Neifile = cardinal virtue Temperance
2 Elissa = theological virtue Hope
3 Filostrato = ... man CHANGED
4 Lauretta = theological virtue Caritas or Fides
5 Emilia = cardinal virtue Fortitudo
6 Fiammeta = theological virtue Fides or Caritas
7 Pampinea = cardinal virtue Justice
----------------
8 Filomena = cardinal virtue Prudentia CHANGED
9 Panfilo ... man
10 Diodeo ... man

***************
In Minchiate
... , which is - as Boccaccio - also "from Florence", we have the following order

6. Temperantia = cardinal virtue
7. Fortitudo = cardinal virtue
8. Iustitia = cardinal virtue
...
16. Spes = theological virtue
17. Prudentia = cardinal virtue appears as CHANGED
18. Fides = theological virtue
19. Caritas = theological virtue

****************
Normal Trionfi or Tarot in 15th and 16th century

There are usually only 3 virtues, and one appears either as "disappeared" or "somehow replaced". Naturally - again - it's Prudentia.

****************
A common play with missing virtues in art

It seems to have been a play in art for specific commissioners (I know it for Borso d'Este), to present only 6 virtues with the idea, that the 7th is presented by the commissioner himself. In Borso's case this was Iustitia, so "missing virtues" were not always the virtue Prudentia. But in Tarot Prudentia seems to be the major object for this sort of "hiding-and-games", as it had been already in the Decamerone long before.

****************
Occasionally "Muses in Art"

In the Palazzo Schifanoia picture of the month May with Apollo there appear naturally also the 9 Muses.

ImageImage

One of the Muses is artfully "hidden".

****************
Now to the Poilly deck

The following is a detail of the Poilly deck list, which I developed in the post before.

Image

The virtues are presented by the violet color.

Poilly-42 has ...

Image

Poilly-22 has ..

01 Mercure (flying)
02 L'amour (blind flying Eros with arrow and flowers)
03 L'Esperence (woman at small island with big anchor; Hope)
04 La Force (woman carrying a column)
05 La Fortune Woman standing on wheel in the sea; wings at her feet)
06 La Justice (woman with Libra and sword ... in the background a city view)
07 La Charité (woman with two children)
08 La Prudence (woman with mirror, snake)
09 Les Ages, la Vieillesse
10 Age Viril (hero with sword and shield and dragon; "Golden Vlies" in a tree)
...
[from post #3 ... http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=170889#2 ]


.. and Poilly-41 has
Image
[from post #2 ... http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=170889#1 ]

************
... well, possibly not the best way to show, what I mean.

Another attempt. First we have to import the Etteilla deck:

1. Motif NEW Chaos: ETTEILLA - Le Chaos - LE QUESTIONNANT :
2. Motif Sun: ÉCLAICISSEMENT (1er jour de la création) - La Lumière - FEU
3. Motif Moon: PROPOS (? jour de la création)- Les Plantes - EAU
4. Motif Star: DÉPOUILLEMENT (2.e jour de la création)- Le Ciel - AIR (3.e Element)
5. Motif World: VOYAGE (6.e jour de la création) - L'Homme et les Quadrupèdes - TERRE (3.e Element)
6. Motif NEW "Day and Night", "Astres": LA NUIT (4.e jour de la création) - Les Astres - LE JOUR
7. Motif NEW "birds and fishs": APPUI (5.e jour de la création) - Les Oiseaux et les Poissons - PROTECTION
8. Motif NEW female questioner: ETTEILLA - Repos - LA QUESTIONNANTE
9. Motif Justice: LA JUSTICE - La Justice - Le LEGISTE
10. Motif Temperance: La TEMPÉRANCE - La Tempérance - LE PRÈTRE
11. Motif Strength: LA FORCE - La Force - LE SOUVERAIN
12. Motif Prudence: LA PRUDENCE - La Prudence - LE PEUPLE
13. Motif Lovers ???? (Mariage): MARIAGE - Le Grand Prétre - UNION
14. Motif Devil: FORCE MAJEURE - Le Diable - FORCE MAJEURE
15. Motif Magician: MALADIE - Le Magicien, ou le Báteleur - MALADIE
16. Motif Judgment (Angel): LE JUGEMENT - Le Jugement dernier - LE JUGEMENT
17. Motif Death: MORTALITÉ - La Mort - NÉANT
18. Motif Hermit: TRAITRE - Le Capucin - FAUX DÉVOT
19. Motif Tower: MISÈRE - Le Temple foudroyé - PRISON
20. Motif Fortune: FORTUNE - La Roue de Fortune - AUGMENTATION
21. Motif Chariot: DISSENSION - Le Despot Africain - ARROGANCE
0 Motif Fool: FOLIE FOLIE


Then I make a reduced list to get a focus on the interesting points:

Image

... and then I think a little bit ... :-)
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Re: Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

Postby Huck on 29 Mar 2012, 21:08

One basic question about the Poilly deck is, how the Etteilla Tarocchi developed. The assumption, that the Poilly deck played a role in this developmwernt, was born, when it was realized, that the card Chaos appeared at Nr. 1 in the Poilly-42 deck and it appeared as Nr. 1 in the Etteilla.
This happened here:
tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=3020298&highlight=poilly#172

This hardly couldn't have been an accident, Etteilla should known the Poilly deck. In the development some interest was taken in the Petit Oracle des Dames ...
http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=171379
... which is a clear prolongation of the Etteilla deck combined with some other divination decks material made before 1800, existing clearly with surviving decks since 1807.

For the current state of research the Petit Oracle is taken as a later riddle. First it's the interest to explain the Etteilla on the base of the Poilly deck development ... and only the trumps of it, the court and number cards are ignored.

************

"1 Chaos" comes from the Poilly-42 deck (it's not present in Poilly-41 and Poilly-22) and it is "improved" by Etteilla by 3 accompanying cards, which before haven't been used.


1. Motif NEW Chaos: ETTEILLA - Le Chaos - LE QUESTIONNANT
...
6. Motif NEW "Day and Night", "Astres": LA NUIT (4.e jour de la création) - Les Astres - LE JOUR
7. Motif NEW "birds and fishs": APPUI (5.e jour de la création) - Les Oiseaux et les Poissons - PROTECTION
8. Motif NEW female questioner: ETTEILLA - Repos - LA QUESTIONNANTE


Chaos in the Poilly deck developed relative clearly from "Chaos" in the Hesiod text ...

(ll. 116-138) Verily at the first Chaos came to be, but next wide-bosomed Earth, the ever-sure foundations of all the deathless ones who hold the peaks of snowy Olympus, and dim Tartarus in the depth of the wide-pathed Earth, and Eros (Love), fairest among the deathless gods, who unnerves the limbs and overcomes the mind and wise counsels of all gods and all men within them. From Chaos came forth Erebus and black Night; but of Night were born Aether and Day, whom she conceived and bare from union in love with Erebus. And Earth first bare starry Heaven, equal to herself, to cover her on every side, and to be an ever-sure abiding-place for the blessed gods. And she brought forth long Hills, graceful haunts of the goddess-Nymphs who dwell amongst the glens of the hills. She bare also the fruitless deep with his raging swell, Pontus, without sweet union of love. But afterwards she lay with Heaven and bare deep-swirling Oceanus, Coeus and Crius and Hyperion and Iapetus, Theia and Rhea, Themis and Mnemosyne and gold-crowned Phoebe and lovely Tethys. After them was born Cronos the wily, youngest and most terrible of her children, and he hated his lusty sire.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm

The surrounding of c. 1660 (assumed date for he Poilly decks, at least assumed by myself) knew a greater interest in Greek mythology (other cards show Mercury, Venus, Bacchus etc.), Etteilla had more Egyptian interests, but it's clear, that he was inspired by Genesis and its Tohu Wa-bohu.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tohu_wa-bohu

Etteilla himself had developed earlier the "Etteilla", a personal card for the "Questionnant" as a 33rd card added to common Piquet deck with 32 cards. This was taken now to the Chaos card and it got a female counterpart in the presentation of the 7th day of creation (which presents "completed genesis"), as card Nr. 8, the "Questionnante", accompanied by two other new cards, mainly from the Genesis interpretation.

ImageImageImage

Image

For the cards 2-5 Etteilla used 4 cards of the Aries-serie (Minchiate 36-39), and in their motifs he clearly was orientated towards the Tarot des Marseilles, not to the Poilly deck ...

Image

Image

... BUT in their numbers (2-5) Etteilla imitated the Poilly-42 deck.

Image

The 4 elements in the Poilly-42 (where they had come to from the earlier older Minchiate) at position 6-9 were moved as additional attribute to Sun-Moon-Star-World, the result was "some free place" which could be filled with Etteilla's new cards.

So far that's an easy game. Very clearly the Etteilla depends in some parts on the Poilly-42 deck.

Well, the next step will follow.
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Re: Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

Postby Huck on 29 Mar 2012, 21:11

Huck wrote:Well, the next step will follow.


Image

In the last post I had explained ...

Image

... how the first cards of the Etteilla deck developed from Poilly-42 ... more or less.

The jump to a "reversed Order"

Now in the larger context we see, that there was a jump to a "reversed order" between the versions Poilly-41/Poilly-22 and Poilly-42.
A "reversed order" (in parts, not total) had been already observed for the Etteilla version (only a smaller part) and for the Petit Oracle des Dames (a much larger part).

But we see, that the jump from usual order to reversed order already happened in the Poilly deck time, it wasn't invented by Etteilla.
Etteilla followed, Etteilla likely knew the Poilly deck and Etteilla imitated (in parts) the Poill deck.
In the Poilly-42 deck the "reversed order in parts" happened between Nr. 2 and Nr. 30. In the comparable (later) Petit Oracle des Dames we have the reversed order in parts between Nr. 1 and and Nr. 22, also not in the complete deck.

Splitting the 5 Aries

The 5 Aries are the 5 highest trump in the older Minchiate. The row is usually ...

40 Angel = Fama
39 World
38 Sun
37 Moon
36 Star

In the table we can see, that this group of 5 cards is split in a group of 4 (World-Sun-Moon-Star) and the single Angel-Fama element. The split (again) occurs between the versions Poilly-41/Poilly-22 and Poilly-42, and (again) "Etteilla followed", though in a somewhat different context.

In the Etteilla we have it ...

Image

... that the Fama-Angel is placed between "5 bad cards". In the Etteilla the 5 bad cards are ..

14 Devil - 15 Magician - ... - 17 Death - 18 Hermit (= Traitor) - 19 Tower
... and in the older Minchiate it had been ...

11 Hermit (= crippled age) - 12 Hanging Man (= Traitor) - 13 Death - 14 Devil - 15 Tower

... and with this sequence it appeared also in the Ferrarese order.
In other words, Etteilla replaced the Hanging Man with the Magician, after Gebelin (? likely) had changed before the Hanging Man to Prudentia.


FAMA IS A VIRTUE

Now we have a strange card somewhere else ...

Image

Image

... in the Vieville deck (c. 1650), which later reappeared in the Belgian Tarot (c. 1780):

Image

It's the card of Temperance, but the inscription says "Sol Fama". This is the "Sol Fama riddle" and we had a long discussion about it recently ...

Fama riddle thread

... where it turned out, that this symbol was used already by Alciato around 1540, somehow also by Teofilo Folengo 1527, somehow by Boiardo and possibly it played already a role for Petrarca. We were not ale to clear all circumstances ... but there is something.

What do we see now, when we see in the Poilly deck this sequence:

Image

We see, that, if Fama was taken = Temperance, that under this condition the Poilly-42 deck had 6 virtues instead of 5.
But, if there were 6 virtues in the Poilly-42, then it seems likely, that there is somewhere a hidden 7th virtue. About "hidden virtues" I've already talked in this thread.

http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=170889&page=2#12

But if the Poilly-42 had "7 virtues" (2 of them hidden), then likely also the Poilly-41 and the Poilly-22 had 7 instead of 5 official virtues.

The (hyopothetical) discussion of the Poilly decks

The Time: I suggest, that the discussion took place c. 1660 and a little before, possibly the Tarot ballet of Marolles is an internal part of the discussion.

Who discussed? Poilly the artist, Marolles as one of Poilly's commissioner, Mazarin as an old lover of playing cards, possibly the young French king Louis XIV himself, perhaps other courtiers at the court. The Poilly decks were just minor objects between many other (partly much more expensive) productions of art and festivities.

Basis situation: Poilly came back from Italy and talked about the Minchiate game. Generally there was a negative trend against too much Italian influence, and part of this negativity aimed at Italian Tarocchi cards.

Major point of critique: There was an Emperor in the Italian Minchiate (and in the Italian Tarot). This was "impossible". Louis had the aim to become a great king himself. So - somehow - Poilly got the commission, to form a new French variant of Minchiate - naturally without any appearance of anything, which might remember the German Emperor.
Poilly formed three variants. Likely: None of them gained a high attention, which one should conclude from the condition, that only few decks have survived. It seems, that the Poilly family later repeated productions of the decks, maybe 1730, maybe c. 1760.

The information is very thin. I even was not able till now to see pictures of all 42, I think I know 23 of them.

The Way of the Virtues. And "which is missing"?

Image

Naturally one should likely expect additional virtues close to the other 5 virtues. With Fortune we have in ...

Poilly-41: Fortune after the 5 virtues (5-9) at position 10
Poilly-22: Fortune between the virtues (3-4 and 6-8) at position 5
Poilly-42: Fortune outside the virtues (19-23) at a rather special position 30 (somehow "highest trump" below the zodiac)

The French relationship to the term Fortune might have been more intensive in France than elsewhere at least in late 14th century/begin 15th century. Fortune was then a very often used word. France had then - often enough - a not very lucky time, connected to losses in the 100 years French-English war. But "Fortune" changed, France recovered, and the whole finished with a French victory and enlarged French territory.
It might be, that this specific other relationship to "Fortune" still was living around 1650. I considered the possibility, if "Fortune" might have been interpreted as a "virtue" just around this time.

Image
http://www2.biusante.parisdescartes.fr/img/?refphot=07775&mod=s

This is from 1646 .... Vertu surmounts fortune ...
Somehow it relates to this following text, which is variously reprinted with different titles.

Image

This late picture from 1700 also belongs to one of the versions ...

Image

The text, as far I got it (actually I DON'T FIND IT), somehow relates to some obscure fortunetelling system, possibly more on dreams. It's said to have had an anonymous author.

The first title "Le Palais de Curieux ... " (1646) seem to reflect "Le Palais de Curieux" (1612) of ..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_B%C3%A9roalde_de_Verville
... François Béroalde de Verville. This was a rather active author, who is considered in alchemical contexts ...

Image

I've no note, that there is any real context between the 1612-version and the anonymous work of 1646.

****

... well, actually I should make a break here. The question around the missing virtues becomes complicated ... BUT ...

Just following the analyses of the Poilly decks schemes, it seems, as if the deck designer replaced the two missing virtues Fides and Temperance ..

in Poilly-41: with Fortune and Bacchus OR with Fortune and Love
in Poilly-22: with Fortune and Love
in Poilly-42: with Fortune and Fama-Angel

Now the combination of "Fortune and Love" (as it appears in the analyzes of the Poilly decks) is an ideal title for Fortunetelling and for Fortunetelling books already since Lorenzo Spirito and the 15th century - at least.

And second we have, that it looks, as if the Etteilla system would have been mother of the great cartomancy development in late 18th and first half of 19th century.

And third we have, that the Etteilla looks like influenced by the Poilly decks.

What shall one conclude from all these relations? Possibly, that already the Poilly decks had the intention to work as a sort of divination system with playing cards?
The condition, that not much Poilly decks survived, let's one assumes, that this method - if it REALLY existed - had found not much users. Well, everything starts small.

For the moment, this are only suspicions in my opinion.

**************

Image
Poilly decks "Fortune"

Image
http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/CadresFenetre?O=IFN-8409718&I=8&M=chemindefer
Poilly deck "Love"


Image
Mitelli "Love"

Image
http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks03/d01865/d01865.htm
Mitelli "Fortune"

Occasionally I detect some similarity between cards of the Poilly decks and cards of the Mitelli versions. According my ideas the Poilly deck should be older. Well ... it's not enough similarity to make larger conclusions.
But Mitelli made another deck with 40 picture cards ..


http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p= ... itelli#172

... possibly another byway of the Minchiate deck form.
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Re: Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

Postby Huck on 29 Mar 2012, 21:20

... still in work ...

As a byway ... but these byways often bring success.

I detected some Minchiate descriptions in British library ... the important person is
Cosimo III de Medici (reigning in Tuscany/Florence 1670-1723)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosimo_III_de%27_Medici,_Grand_Duke_of_Tuscany

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?currentpage=3&productioninfo=on&titlesubject=on&toadbc=ad&physicalattribute=on&orig=%2fresearch%2fsearch_the_collection_database.aspx&objectid=3283170&partid=1&searchtext=minchiate&fromadbc=ad&numpages=10
Description 1

Incomplete tarot pack with 19 of 97 playing-cards for Minchiate of Florence. The cards present are Nos. I, VII, XII, XIII, XXI, XXIII, XXIIII, XXV, XXVIII, XXXI, and XXIII of the attuti, and the queen and 6 of cups, knight and 9 of coins, and the ace, 8, 9 and king of swords. On No. XXIIII of the attuti is a stamped collector's mark "F.C.S". The backs of the cards are printed with the arms apparently of Cosmo de Medici the Third. The shield is surmounted by a ducal crown, and has below the motto "Colomba".

Hand-coloured woodcut
Backs as above
Circa 1675


http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?currentpage=3&productioninfo=on&titlesubject=on&toadbc=ad&physicalattribute=on&orig=%2fresearch%2fsearch_the_collection_database.aspx&objectid=3285819&partid=1&searchtext=minchiate&fromadbc=ad&numpages=10
Description 2
Incomplete tarot pack with 65 of 97 playing-cards for the game, Minchiate of Florence. This set includes 26 tarots proper and 39 numerals. The missing numeral cards are the ace, 2, 3, knave and king of clubs; the 2, 6, and 9 of swords; the ace, 5, 8, 9 and king of cups; and the 4, 9, knight and king of cups. The missing attuti are the I, III, IV, VII, XV, XVIIII, XXI, XXIIII, XXV, XXVIII, XXVIIII, XXXIII, XXXVII, XXXVIIII, and XXXX. The set includes the fool or 'Il Matto'. The backs of the cards are printed with the arms of Cosmo de Medici the Third. The shield is surmounted by a ducal crown, and has below the motto "Fortuna". A narrow border, typical of Italian cards, encloses the design of the faces of the cards.

Hand-coloured woodcut
Backs as above
Circa 1675

Both article refer to a 19th century catalog made by Willshire:
http://books.google.de/books?id=P54BguUY0jkC&pg=PA5&dq=minchiate&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BTFsT7fqIsjy8QO-1ey_DQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=minchiate&f=false

The interesting part of this observation is in the life description of Cosimo III:
He married Marguerite Louise d'Orléans, a cousin of Louis XIV. The marriage was solemnized by proxy in the King's Chapel at the Louvre, on Sunday, April 17, 1661. It was a marriage fraught with tribulation. Marguerite Louise eventually abandoned Tuscany for the Convent of Montmartre. Together, they had 3 children: Ferdinando in 1663, Anna Maria Luisa, Electress Palatine, in 1667, and Gian Gastone, the last Medicean ruler of Tuscany, in 1671.


This marriage between Florence (original place of the older Minchiate) and France (location of the Minchiate Francesi) took place in April 1661.
The origin of the Poilly decks is calculated to c. 1660. This calculation was given, as earlier remarked, by a playing card dealer, ...

A playing card seller for old cards offers this information:
Le sommet de la vente pourrait bien être atteint avec le «Minchiate» de François
de Poillly, 2ème version, un jeu complet de 98 cartes, estimé 8 000 / 12 000
€. Le Minchiate est une forme florentine du tarot, où l’on a ajouté des atouts ;
très à la mode en Italie aux XVIIe et XVIIIe siècle, il séduisit François I de Poilly
qui en réalisa une version française à son retour à Paris, vers 1660. Son fils
François II a voulu « remettre de l’ordre » dans ces atouts « incohérents », d’où
cette nouvelle édition, connue en 2 exemplaires uniquement.

http://www.millon-associes.com/doc/CP-Carte-a-jouer-051111.pdf


... I for my part only researched this suggestion and found, that this date would make much more sense than the usual assumed "c. 1730".

Now with this marriage from April 1461 (relatively close to the marriage of Louis XIV in June 1460 with a SPANISH princess) we get a political reason, why the French court in c. 1660 should have suddenly an interest in Minchiate.

The marriage itself had its curious sides, perhaps best studied by the related biographies:

Marguerite Louise d'Orléans (1645 – 1721)
She opposed the marriage finally, and, 15 years old, took a lover before the wedding. This didn't work out, and she had to marry anyway. The marriage went totally wrong and was a series of scandals, she left her family for a French convent, and the time which followed, was also full of scandals. What's interesting for us: "she gambled for high stakes" at the court of Louis XIV. The king himself used his own regular gambling parties to keep the French nobility politically weak and under control (and likely he earned some money from the gambling) and naturally didn't mind such activities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marguerite_Louise_d%27Orl%C3%A9ans

Anne Marie Louise, duchess of Montpensier, the elder half sister (1627 - 1693; 33 years in 1660), host of one of the great Parisian salons of this time, and she finally was against this marriage (and her much younger half-sister - 15 years old - loved to follow the advice of the elder sister). Anne Marie Louise was called "Le Grande Mademoiselle", cause she never married.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Marie_Louise,_Duchess_of_Montpensier

Image
Anne Marie Louise as Minerva with a portrait of her Father Gaston (brother of Louis XIII)

Maria Teresa of Spain, Queen of France
"Louis was faithful to his wife for the first year of their marriage, commanding the Grand Maréchal du Logis that "the Queen and himself were never to be set apart, no matter how small the house in which they might be lodging". He enjoyed the legitimate passion that his wife felt for him, however the couple would later have difficulty with compatibility.[citation needed] Marie-Thérèse gained weight with her delight and withdrew into her circle of dwarfs."
"Marie-Thérèse was very fortunate to have found a friend at court in her mother-in-law, unlike many princesses in foreign lands. She continued to spend much of her free time playing cards and gambling, as she had no interest in politics or literature. Consequently, she was viewed as not fully playing the part of queen designated to her by her marriage. But more importantly, she became pregnant in early 1661, and a long-awaited son was born on 1 November 1661."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Theresa_of_Spain

Well ... and a little bit the case with the love affair before the marriage:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_V,_Duke_of_Lorraine
Only the French wikipedia notes the love affaire
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_V_de_Lorraine
And the German notes, that Louis XIV had said about him at his death: "le plus grand, le plus sage et le plus généreux de mes ennemis est mort"

***********

Well, it seems totally distant to the theme, but it actually isn't: Tarocco Siciliano

Image

I worked on it here ...
http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=161451&page=2#12

....

I attempt to present the important Dummett/McLeod researches in short form from "A History of Games Played With the Tarot Pack: The Games of Trumps", p. 367 - 401, published in 2004. They are, as the authors note, partly dependent on some researches of Franco Pratesi.

According Dummett/McLeod the major source for our knowledge about Tarocco Siciliano had been a text inside of 25 volumes of manuscript diaries and 48 manuscript volumes "Opusculi" with aspects of Sicilian life, made by ...

Francesco Maria Emanuele e Gaetani, Marchese di Villabianca
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Maria_Emanuele_Gaetani_marchese_di_Villabianca

... The manuscripts are housed in the Bibliotheca Communale in Palermo. One of the Opusculi is about games. In this there is information about Tarocco Siciliano and about "Gallerini", which is the Sicilian name for Minchiate (Minchiate in Sicily is understood as an obscene expression and likely for this reason wasn't used in Sicily).
The Tarocco Siciliano (with less cards and trumps, but with two cards similar to Fool) was occasionally addressed as "little Gallerini".
The author Villabianca (lived 1720-1802) wrote the game-chapter likely in 1786. He played himself only till 1766 because of "deterioting eyesight". The author thinks, that the game Gallerini became rare at the end of the century. The Tarocco game was mainly played with four hands, a 3-player version reduced the cards and was called Tarocchini. Dummett/Mcleod assume for this reason, that the reduced version with 63 or 64 cards was a later popular production mode, which caused the far spread production of 63-card-versions. They have information from other sources, which say, that till 1862 the 63-cards-deck had been the standard form. After this time the ace of coins (missing in the 63-card-deck as all other aces, all 2s, all 3s and three of the 4s) was generally used in all type of decks to carry a tax-stamp - so also in the Tarocco Siciliano (although it wasn't used in this game).

....
....

Villabianca gives the information, that the Tarocco Siciliano was imported in 1662 or 1663 by ...
Francesco Caetani, 8th duke of Sermoneta, (living 11 March 1613 - says Wikipedia; likely better sources say 1594 - till 9 October 1683)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Caetani,_8th_Duke_of_Sermoneta
- "gentilhomme of the Sanish king" active in Rome
- Governor in Milan as representative of Spain from 1660-62
- Viceroy of Sicily from September 1662 to April 1667

.....
.....

Francesco's second wife, the "Pimentella"

The second wife of Francesco Caetani since c. 1661 (in earlier full name "Leonor Mencia Pimentel Moscosa y Toledo") appears in the text of Harrach as "Pimentella" and Harrach is rather interested to have her favor, as she seems to be of some importance for the Empress Maria Anna (1606 - 1646, Empress since 1637, but already married to her husband since 1631; a Spanish king's daughter). Harrach notes the Pimentlla for being present in the Austrian region 1636-39 (then leaving to Spain), then again he meets her in Austrian regions 1446 (in this year the empress died), then again in 1648-49, likey with the function to accompany an Austrian princess to Spain to become the next Queen of Spain. She served as a court lady, and, as it seems, not in low function.

The Empress and the Spanish Queen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Anna_of_Spain
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariana_of_Austria

For the conditions of the family we see the genealogy ...

http://www.genmarenostrum.com/pagine-lettere/letterac/Caetani/caetani.htm
Don Francesco Caetani IV (* Napoli 11-3-1594 + Roma 9-10-1683),
8° Duca di Sermoneta,
4° Marchese di Cisterna, Signore di Bassiano, Ninfa, Norma e San Donato dal 1614 e Patrizio Napoletano;
Gentiluomo di Camera del Re di Spagna Filippo IV, compera (7-1641) il ducato di San Marco (confermato Duca 1-8-1641)
Cavaliere dell’Ordine del Toson d’Oro dal 27-12-1659, Vicerè di Valenza nel 1660,
rinuncia al ducato di Sermoneta in favore del nipote Gaetano Francesco nel 1660 (?),
Vicerè e Governatore del Ducato di Milano 3-1660/9-1662,
Vicerè del Regno di Sicilia 24-9-1662/9-4-1667.

a) = (contratto: 23-6-1618) Caserta 3-12-1618 Donna Anna Acquaviva d’Aragona
3° Principessa di Caserta dal 1635, figlia ed erede del Principe Don Andrea
Matteo e di Isabella Caracciolo dei Conti di Sant’Angelo (* 1596 + Ariccia
16-9-1659)

b) = 1661 (?) dona Leonor Mencia Pimentel Moscosa y Toledo, figlia di don
Antonio Marchese di Navarra e ministro del Re Filippo IV di Spagna (* 22-10-
1613 + in Spagna 14-1-1685).

Son of first marriage:

Don Filippo II (* Caserta 29-5-1620 + Sermonta 4-12-1687), ebbe
Caivano dalla madre il 6-6-1638, Principe di Caserta dal 1659; Patrizio Napoletano.t

a) = 1-4-1642 Donna Cornelia d’Aquino 3° Principessa di Castiglione e
Contessa di Nicastro, figlia del Principe Don Cesare e di Donna Laura
d’Aquino Principessa di Castiglione (* Nicastro 18-11-1629 + Roma
15-8-1644)

b) = 1646 Donna Francesca de’ Medici, figlia di Don Ottaviano Principe di
Ottaiano e di Donna Diana Caracciolo dei Principi di Avellino (vedi/see)

c) = Palermo 9-1652 Donna Topazia Gaetani, figlia di Don Pietro Marchese di
Sortino e Principe di Cassaro e di Antonia Saccano Naselli (* 30-5-1620
+ Cisterna 8-10-1672) (vedi/see), già vedova di Don Giovanni Francesco Fardella
Principe di Paceco.


Observing the biography, it seems, that the late marriage to the Pimantella (she 48, himself 67) were part of his promotion to the posts as governor of Valenza (Piedmont; 1660), then governor of Milan (1660-1662) and then as viceroy in Sicily (1662-1667).


*********************

SUMMARY

Actually we have 3 or even 5 related court circles, at which something happened with Minchiate.

1. French court - Poilly decks, c. 1660
2. Austrian court, cause the Pimentella was active there.
3 Spanish court, cause the Pimentella was actbve there.
4. Sicilian court, cause the Pimentella was likely the deciding person behind the "pseudo-introduction" of Tarocco Siciliano; the Tarocco was addressed as "little Gallerini" and Gallerini meant Minchiate - since 1662
5. Florence court, cause Minchiate had a Florentine tradition

The Pimentella was of great importance for the women at the Austrian and the Spanish court.

For the Austrian court I've the following "confirmations":

a. "Il Malmantile Racquistato - A general who loved tarot too much",
written by Lorenzo Lippi (1605-1665)
http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=215&lng=ENG
... includes notes about Minchiate and Tarocco.
Lorenzo lived in Florence and in Innsbruck, where he worked for Claudia de Medici, archduchess in Austria. Claudia died 1648, so likely Lippi had been there before 1648 (actually I saw a note giving 1647-49 as the time of his stay). Claudia herself had been in Austria since 1626.

(still in work)
User avatar
Huck
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Re: Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

Postby Huck on 29 Mar 2012, 21:23

stumbled about this information in Dummett/McLeod's book about Tarot rules ...
http://www.gameoftarot.com/page6.html
.. p. 327

Image

There were 98-cards-packs.

It's not clear, that this had anything to do with the Minchiate Francesi of Poilly ... at least for the later version, which is described by the additional card this can't be the Minchiate Francesi.

But there were 98 cards decks. However, the information not very clear, what sort of decks we have to imagine.
User avatar
Huck
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Re: Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

Postby mikeh on 16 Apr 2012, 21:48

You have put together an excellent resource here, Huck, quite interesting.

One observation I have is that the Marolles deck, very close to being a tarot, suggests no little erudition on the part of the designer. It is not just Ovid, whose Metamorphoses provides the frame, but a host of other authors, quoted in Greek when that was the language they wrote in: Nonnus, Dionysica Book 42 (imagine even reading that far in that tedious adventure story), Oppian, Apollonius. It is possible that someone had annotated an edition of Ovid and given these quotes in footnotes, but I doubt it, as they are too late to be among Ovid's sources. Also, even if these works were were available in Latin translation--and I doubt if they all were--some knowledge of Greek would have been required.

Your comments about the two Fools stimulate me to ask what they represent. Was it the wise fool and the ignorant fool, or something else, like the wise/ignorant fool in heaven and his earthly counterpart? In this regard, the figure in "Chaos" might be of Genesis I:1 's God, who is about to order the Chaos, as much as Hesiod's Chaos. In Etteilla's case, both would seem to be implied. For one thing, the card appears before the end of the first day of creation (of which we see on card 2). For another, there is what Etteilla says in the 2nd Cahier, describing how ignorant people jumbled up the tarot from its Egyptian state (from my post at http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.ph ... aos&page=8, which also transcribes the French):
Ignorance finally erased from the Book of Thot the first sheet, listed no. 1, which represented--as may be justified by numbers 9, 10, 11, 12--a light surrounded by a thick cloud, or the chaos which was turned back in order to give place to the Truth, at the moment when the Creator manifested his glory and his sovereign bounty to the Creatures of the whole Universe, who slept and will sleep again in his intelligence: allegorical truth, indeed worthy of our first Masters.

The synonym list in "Julia Orsini" suggests not only God, but Sagacity (from my post at http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.ph ... ost2699941, deleting the words there that are in Papus only--universe, physical man, in the reversed--which I have not been able to verify as earlier than him):
1
. ETTEILLA. God. All-Powerful, Eternal, Very-High, Unitrine, the Supreme Being, the Central Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Male Consultant, Chaos. Thought. Meditation, Contemplation, Reflection, Concentration.
Reversed: Le Questionnant. [MALE QUERENT]. Philosophy. Philosophical. Philosophically. Philosopher. Sage. Sagacity. Sagely

It has its meaning of "chaos" in three respects. First, it stands for the male inquirer, who comes in a state of perplexity desiring clarity. Second, when it is upright and in conjunction with other negative cards. This appears in the "Julia Orsini" of c. 1838-1840:
If this card comes up in its natural sense and is found near cards no. 14, 17, or 18 it is an unfortunate sign.

14 is the Devil, 17 is Death, and 18 is the Traitor. Notice that 15, the Magician, and 16, the Last Judgment, are not considered intrinsically negative; they can go either way.
And finally, when it negates other cards that would otherwise be fortunate:
Near no. 76, error; near no. 71, loss of money; no. 47, lack of success

76 has the keyword "Embarass", Trouble, and so it is a case of the negative becoming more negative; 70 has "Argent" (money), and 47, Reussite (Success),

And one more comment. The list of gods--only four of them, at the beginning--suggests to me an affinity either with Florence of the 1470s-80s or Ferrara of 1511-1530. Bacchus, Venus, and Amor were the primary gods of the Bacchanal-style festivities, plays. poems, and philosophy of Lorenzo, Poliziano, Pico, and Ficino. Mercury was another lover of Venus, from was born Hermaphroditus (pressed into service by the alchemists) as well as getting a certain elevation through verbal association with Mercury Trismegistus. These gods, at least the first three, were the primary subjects of Alfonso's camerino paintings (1515-1525), which were relatively unknown until they were Seized by the Vatican and brought to Rome in 1598, so that Reubens and Van Dyck, among many others, did their imitations then, thus influencing French engravers.
mikeh
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Location: Oregon USA
Favorite Deck: Conver/Noblet & Sola-Busca pips

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