Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot

#2
It's not in his book, The Tarot Trumps (1985), so it must be in one of these papers in The Playing Card

"SHEPHARD, John. Goldschmidt sun XVI/2/37-40;
Goldschmidt Tarots XVIII/1/1-5;
Guildhall sun XVI/3/84-6;
Lance and the fountain; some variant forms of the World XVII/2/54-7;
His The Tarot trumps, Reviewed by T. D XIV/3/85-6;
Review of Kaplan's The Encyclopedia of Tarot Vol. II XVI/4/115-116"

http://www.i-p-c-s.org/tpcindex.html

I think someone on this forum has all of the issues to consult (I'd like to read the review by T.D. (Thierry Depaulis), myself).

Ross
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Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot

#5
The Goldschmidt cards are in the Spielkartenmuseum Stuttgart-Leinfelden. Hoffmann reported 1972, that a paper research was done in the 1950's. The result was a c. mid 15th century.

Cesare Borgia didn't live then.
Possibly the Shephard suggestion depended on the provenance, which is given with Sevilla, Spain (as far I remember and if I didn't understand this wrong).

Independent from each other Franco Pratesi in the 1990's and Trionfi.com later associated the crowned fish with the Dauphine. Franco made a suggestion of c. 1490 (it seems, he didn't know about the paper research), we found, that a specific situation in the year 1461 did fit with ...

a. the paper research
b. the Dauphine identification (and the surrounding conditions).

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http://damecarcass.blogspot.com/2011/01 ... is_17.html
Crown and Arms of the Dauphin of France

Dauphin (Dolphin) is the title held by the eldest son of the king of France.
It means this is the presumptive heir to the throne until his coronation.


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FRANCE, Dauphiné. Charles V of France, 1364-1380 AD. AR Gros au dauphiné (2.45 gm). Crowned dolphin / Cross with lis and dolphins in quarters. Pr.4915. Toned VF. Rare. [Est. $325]
http://www.mcsearch.info/search.html?se ... &l=&page=3

This is a coin of 14th century. In our earlier research we found other (more contemporary) coins with some more similarity of the fish to the playing card display of the crowned fish.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot

#6
Yes, thanks for the development.

And in the falconer may be is the fleur-de-lis
falconer_flordelis.jpg
falconer_flordelis.jpg (79.2 KiB) Viewed 13937 times
...............

Another possible heraldic:

a) The sun and the 3 mountain

vd. Caldwell article:
http://ludustriumphorum.blogspot.com/20 ... t-sun.html

b) The wheel in the falconer

c) The castle in the queen
vd. Huck article:
http://trionfi.com/0/c/50/m09.html
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot

#7
Yes, there is a lot of heraldic. And this other heraldic might be the heraldic from "somebody else".

But the crowned dolphin is "only heraldic" ... nothing else. And there is a parallel to the twice appearing Visconti viper in the Sforza decks ... also "only heraldic". From this it is plausible, that this card indicates the "owner".

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The dauphin of spring 1461 sits in Genappe, Belgium, then Burgundy - in exile. He was escaped the attack of his father in 1456 and took refuge there.
He loved especially the hunting possibilities of the region - Burgundy was famous for its falcons (see falconer).

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The European crowns send their diplomats to his court, as it was expected, that soon Dauphin Louis - though still powerless - would become the powerful king of France and a new time would start.
Everybody, who took the opportunity to be friendly then to the "humble" Louis, would have the chance, that Louis would remember his favor when Louis would become king of France.

His young Savoy wife just had gotten a son (?), who survived ... for the moment (other births before went bad, a son and daughter had died).
F1. King LOUIS XI "le Prudent" of France (1461-83), *Bourges 3.7.1423, +Plessis-lez-Tours 30.8.1483, bur Notre Dame de Clery; 1m: Tours 24.6.1436 Margaret of Scotland (*25.12.1424 +16.8.1445); 2m: Chambery 1451 Charlotte di Savoia (*1445 +1483)

* G1. Joachim, *VII.1459, +Namur XI.1459, bur Amboise
* G2. Louis, * and +1467
* G3. King CHARLES VIII "l'Affable" of France (1483-98), *Amboise 30.6.1470, +there 7.4.1498, bur St.Denis; m.Langeais 1491 Dss Anne de Bretagne (*1477 +1514)
o H1. Charles Orland, Dauphin de Viennois, * Château de Montils-lez-Tours 1492, +Amboise 1495, bur Tours
o H2. Charles, Dauphin de Viennois, *IX.1496, +Château de Montils-lez-Tours X.1496, bur Tours
o H3. François, Dauphin de Viennois, *Château de Montils-lez-Tours 1497, +1498
o H4. Anne, *and +20.3.1498, bur Tours
* G4. François, Duc de Berry, *Amboise 1472, +there 1473
* G5. Louise, *Geneppe nr Brussels 1460, +1460
* G6. Anne, Vcts de Thouars, *1462, +Château de Chantelle 1522, bur Souvigny; m.1473 Duc Pierre II de Bourbon (*1438 +1503)
* G7. Jeanne, Dss de Berry, *1464, +Bourges 1505, bur there; m.1476 King Louis XII of France (*27.6.1462 +1.1.1515)
* G8. [illegitimate by Phelise Regnard] Guyotte, batarde de France; m.Charles du Sillon
* G9. [illegitimate by Marguerite de Sassenage] Jeanne de Valois, Dame de Mirabeau, +1519; m.Paris 1466 Louis batard de Bourbon, Cte de Roussillon (+1487)
* G10. [illegitimate by Marguerite de Sassenage] Marie, +1469; m.1467 Aymar de Poitiers, sn de Saint-Vallier
o H1. Jean de Poitiers, sn de Serignan
* G11. [illegitimate by Marguerite de Sassenage] Isabelle, m.Louis de Saint-Priest
o H1. Jeanne de Saint-Priest; m.18.1.1488 Soffrey Alleman
Spring 1461: A Milanese painter got the order to learn from Rogier van Weyden in Brussels. Roger agreed.
But the painter was invited to do some work for Louis. Rogier van Weyden was disgusted, as it wasn't his interest, that "foreign painters" got commissions, which otherwise would have gone to Flemish artists. And the painter consumed too much vine. Bianca Maria Visconti, duchessa of Milan, had to write humble letters, that the painter could stay a pupil of Roger.

It's not known, what sort of commission the Milanese painter fulfilled for Louis. It's somehow natural, that he worked at a "Milanese special art" ... something, which wasn't offered in Burgundian countries.

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Heraldic shield of Genappe, Belgium, nowadays
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genappe

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Goldschmidt cards: Queen with castle
... observe the chequered ground, as it appears variously in the Goldschmidt cards (chess). Observe the accompanying lady-in-waiting, typical in the chess-influenced Cary-Yale Tarocchi (Empress and Emperor)and early chess queen figures.

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How the cards possibly came to Sevilla ...

Henry [French king 1547 - 1459, * 1519] was born in the royal Château de Saint-Germain-en-Laye, near Paris, the son of Francis I and Claude, Duchess of Brittany (daughter of Louis XII of France and Anne, Duchess of Brittany).
His father was captured at the Battle of Pavia in 1525 by his sworn enemy, Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor, and held prisoner in Spain. To obtain his release it was eventually agreed that Henry and his older brother be sent to Spain in his place. They remained in captivity for three years.


It's plausible, that young princes in captivity had "some toys from home". Naturally this would be "worthwhile toys".
Dummett declares, that ""Vim vi" is a motto used by various Italian families, and he says: "but I've not been able to discover one for whom playing cards are likely to have been painted". Dummett gives the information, that "the Guildhall catalogue records both pairs as having been found in an old chest in Seville" (Spain).
http://trionfi.com/0/c/50/

It's difficult to get information, where the boys had been during their captivity. (? ... perhaps you can solve this problem ?)
I remember dark, that we had confirmation, that they at least for some time they were also at Sevilla. At least this period is called the "golden age of Sevilla" (from 1492 till end of 16th century), so the city was great importance then cause the detection of America and a port with privilege to receive incoming ships nearby.

The "captivity of princes" usually was used to influence future rulers positively, so that they would think not too bad of their hosts ... one cannot assume, that the boys had a bad stay in Spain.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot

#8
Very interesting, thanks for the development. %%- :)

- may be related the falconer with the German hunting decks (same for the cards Guildhal)? what do you think?
Spring 1461: A Milanese painter got the order to learn from Rogier van Weyden in Brussels. Roger agreed.
But the painter was invited to do some work for Louis. Rogier van Weyden was disgusted, as it wasn't his interest, that "foreign painters" got commissions, which otherwise would have gone to Flemish artists. And the painter consumed too much vine. Bianca Maria Visconti, duchessa of Milan, had to write humble letters, that the painter could stay a pupil of Roger.
Sorry, friend, do you remember in which document are this?
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot

#9
mmfilesi wrote:Very interesting, thanks for the development. %%- :)

- may be related the falconer with the German hunting decks (same for the cards Guildhal)? what do you think?
Spring 1461: A Milanese painter got the order to learn from Rogier van Weyden in Brussels. Roger agreed.
But the painter was invited to do some work for Louis. Rogier van Weyden was disgusted, as it wasn't his interest, that "foreign painters" got commissions, which otherwise would have gone to Flemish artists. And the painter consumed too much vine. Bianca Maria Visconti, duchessa of Milan, had to write humble letters, that the painter could stay a pupil of Roger.
Sorry, friend, do you remember in which document are this?
Letter or letters from Bianca Maria Sforza ... I know only descriptions. Somebody, who claimed, that she had the letters, said, that there's an error about the stay of the artist (she insists on 3 years later or something like this). She didn't share the letters ... this wasn't convincing.
The usual story has the dates, that the artist stayed from 26th of December 1460 - May 1463 (this precise dating sounds not "insecure"). So the story with "too much vine" and a "commission from Louis" and "Roger's protest" fits with Louis' stay at Genappe as Dauphin and the begin of the stay of the artist (it wouldn't make sense, if it would have been at the end of his stay), possibly 1461 in spring ... this fits better with the playing cards considerations.

Well ... he arrived at 26th of December, that was the usual time for card playing (cause "Christmas season" .. so perhaps the commission took place immediately after his arrival). Perhaps he arrived with intention at Christmas and the artist brought a Sforza Trionfi card production with him (as a present from Bianca), so generated the taste for this foreign playing card production.
It's logical, that the artist had a quarter diplomatic and quarter spy and a half "learning painting from Roger" commission from Bianca, and naturally Milan was VERY interested to comfort Louis and the future French connection (I think this was a usual mix for good artists at foreign territory).

The same painter accompanied the Milanese entourage later, which fetched Bona of Savoy from the French court (Bona was sister to the French queen and had the natural state as lady-in-waiting).

One of the letters is given for 7th of May 1463 (letter with thanks from Bianca).
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot

#10
Huck wrote,
The Goldschmidt cards are in the Spielkartenmuseum Stuttgart-Leinfelden. Hoffmann reported 1972, that a paper research was done in the 1950's. The result was a c. mid 15th century.
Looking in Hoffman's book of 1972, The Playing Card, in the English translation, I see nothing about "paper research". In the paragraph after his discussion of the Goldschmidt, on p. 18, he does say
There is literary and material evidence of the game of tarots in the middle of the 15th century.
This refers to the game in general, not the Goldschmidt in particular. But perhaps Hoffman wrote something else in 1972.

Perhaps you have a German language source that includes the information you cite. If so, could you find it?
It is obviously of crucial importance in discussing the cards.'

Also, do you have any suggestions as to who the castle-ladies would be?

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