Re: New book - "Explaining the Tarot"

#31
I'm quite certain that when the "blueprint' for the first tarot design, with detailed explanations by the game's creator (with diagrams) is discovered in an old Italian castle, and is published, 98% of "tarot enthusiast" will continue to demonstrated "the flexibility of the cards" in all manners of interpretations. How could we expect something as dry as reality to trump the sweet flavor of personal opinion and the rush of "having a theory". It's like viagra for the ego!
When a clock is hungry, it goes back four seconds.

Re: Moralization versus Iconography

#33
Lorredan wrote: The problem with this book, that I am interested in reading, is that there are no copies available in Amazon USA/Britain/Australia/New Zealand. Is this likely to change? I cannot use Paypal.
I thought there was a credit card option at the publishers site? Whatever payment, I simply can't afford it, my book buying days are over (to my SO's relief) so have appreciated the information on the essays provided on discussions here.

edited to add: I just clicked on the visa and DD options and see they just take you to Paypal.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: New book - "Explaining the Tarot"

#34
R.A. Hendley wrote:I'm quite certain that when the "blueprint' for the first tarot design, with detailed explanations by the game's creator (with diagrams) is discovered in an old Italian castle, and is published, 98% of "tarot enthusiast" will continue to demonstrated "the flexibility of the cards" in all manners of interpretations.
Of course, and they would be right to do so, an original blueprint does not negate the demonstrated openness to allegorical reading from early on in its inception, that much, more so than any original blueprint, has been more than adequately demonstrated. Its attraction in any age may to an extent be rooted in that adaptability; and anyway, once a poet has put out a work, it is common for any work of continuing substance that it is the readers exegesis that matters, often taking it beyond the original conception of the author(s). That too is part of its 'reality', at the moment indeed somewhat more 'real' than a speculative 'original blueprint'. My own poems are often interpreted in ways I never imagined or intended, I have learnt it is best not 'correct' them by trying to bring or impose interpretations to within the constraints of my original intent, but to enjoy their growth.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Moralization versus Iconography

#35
SteveM wrote:Whatever payment, I simply can't afford it,
This too is my sad refrain, although I did manage to squeak out $16 for a book on making buttons. I haven't told the spouse yet. 8-|

Possibly a tarot deck with different kinds of buttons to tie into the relevant historical blueprint?

Re: New book - "Explaining the Tarot"

#36
SteveM wrote:
R.A. Hendley wrote:I'm quite certain that when the "blueprint' for the first tarot design, with detailed explanations by the game's creator (with diagrams) is discovered in an old Italian castle, and is published, 98% of "tarot enthusiast" will continue to demonstrated "the flexibility of the cards" in all manners of interpretations.
Of course, and they would be right to do so, an original blueprint does not negate the demonstrated openness to allegorical reading from early on in its inception, that much, more so than any original blueprint, has been more than adequately demonstrated. Its attraction in any age may to an extent be rooted in that adaptability; and anyway, once a poet has put out a work, it is common for any work of continuing substance that it is the readers exegesis that matters, often taking it beyond the original conception of the author(s). That too is part of its 'reality', at the moment indeed somewhat more 'real' than a speculative 'original blueprint'. My own poems are often interpreted in ways I never imagined or intended, I have learnt it is best not 'correct' them by trying to bring or impose interpretations to within the constraints of my original intent, but to enjoy their growth.


I see your point, though I've never been one to equate the popularity of something with its actual value. (I won't go off on a Lady Gaga tangent.)

So, did the creator of these 22 versatile images also partake of this interpretive process, or was his intention to merely present a random series of images for the purpose of facilitating other peoples' interpretive processes down through the ages, and if this is the case, shouldn't we just go ahead and shut down the ol' Tarot History Forum, and all go out for wine and cheese? :ymparty:
When a clock is hungry, it goes back four seconds.

Re: New book - "Explaining the Tarot"

#37
R.A. Hendley wrote:
So, did the creator of these 22 versatile images also partake of this interpretive process, or was his intention to merely present a random series of images for the purpose of facilitating other peoples' interpretive processes down through the ages, and if this is the case, shouldn't we just go ahead and shut down the ol' Tarot History Forum, and all go out for wine and cheese? :ymparty:
There is nothing as yet as far as I am aware to go against what MJH calls Dummetts 'null hypothesis', a series of relatively random images in a somewhat rough order by which people may recognsise rank, which was understood variously according to the gaming conventions of different regions. Such recognition does not depend upon an easily recognised narrative, but rather is estabished by convention, as with any other gaming conventions (nothing mysterious about it).

The Bolognese pattern existed for a long period with no numbers or names, their order was perfectly understood by players by convention, with out resort to any underlying narrative, at least, none that has been recorded (if there is, I suspect such that may exist would fall in the established category of allegorical exegesis of various readers, and not evidential of any original intent).

Why if this is the case should tarot history be shut down? Would not such be a part of tarot history? History is not just about origins and the original intent of the author(s), but developments, cultural influences and interpretations including those of a 15th century preacher or an 18th century gebelin , an anonymous 16th century platonist and/or everything in between. Or is it that all we should be interested in is an allusive historical affirmation of our own interpretation? Some authority for ones vain ego? Not sure of your point, but yes please, I'll gladly partake of some wine and cheese ( a velvety red and creamy port, a strong, ripe and smelly stilton or blue or at a pinch a very mature cheddar, I like em 'real').

R.A. Hendley wrote: I see your point, though I've never been one to equate the popularity of something with its actual value.
???

Not sure what you mean by this, it is you after all that claims the tarots origins is 'of the people'. Of the people, but not popular (ist). Or of the people, popular, but of no value? (I suppose relatively speaking, it is of little value in general / popular terms, but we are conversing as individuals with a specific interest, albeit one that may be considerd of little value in the greater scheme of things).

hmmm.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: New book - "Explaining the Tarot"

#38
SteveM wrote:
R.A. Hendley wrote:
So, did the creator of these 22 versatile images also partake of this interpretive process, or was his intention to merely present a random series of images for the purpose of facilitating other peoples' interpretive processes down through the ages, and if this is the case, shouldn't we just go ahead and shut down the ol' Tarot History Forum, and all go out for wine and cheese? :ymparty:
There is nothing as yet as far as I am aware to go against what MJH calls Dummetts 'null hypothesis', a series of relatively random images in a somewhat rough order by which people may recognsise rank, which was understood variously according to the gaming conventions of different regions. Such recognition does not depend upon an easily recognised narrative, but rather is estabished by convention, as with any other gaming conventions (nothing mysterious about it).

The Bolognese pattern existed for a long period with no numbers or names, their order was perfectly understood by players by convention, with out resort to any underlying narrative, at least, none that has been recorded (if there is, I suspect such that may exist would fall in the established category of allegorical exegesis of various readers, and not evidential of any original intent).

Why if this is the case should tarot history be shut down? Would not such be a part of tarot history? History is not just about origins and the original intent of the author(s), but developments, cultural influences and interpretations including those of a 15th century preacher or an 18th century gebelin , an anonymous 16th century platonist and/or everything in between. Or is it that all we should be interested in is an allusive historical affirmation of our own interpretation? Some authority for ones vain ego? Not sure of your point, but yes please, I'll gladly partake of some wine and cheese.

R.A. Hendley wrote: I see your point, though I've never been one to equate the popularity of something with its actual value.
???

Not sure what you mean by this, it is you after all that claims the tarots origins is 'of the people'. Of the people, but not popular (ist). Or of the people, popular, but of no value? (I suppose relatively speaking, it is of little value in general / popular terms, but we are conversing as individuals with a specific interest, albeit one that may be considerd of little value in the greater scheme of things).

hmmm.
By "popular" I was referring to your suggestion that Tarot's value is because loads of people have used the images as a springboard for various personal interpretations. My suggestion in closing the forum is that if the trumps are simply a meaningless hierarchy, as you suggest, there isn't much point in discussing what they might have meant. An occasional posting of a date or documented account of the cards should suffice, no?

My problem with the 'null hypothesis' is I clearly see a narrative, and what I see clearly reflects the Dances of Death, the themes of De Casibus, and the Fall of Princes. These are exactly what one would expect to find in a didactic work of the place and time Tarot arose. These are exactly the themes the hoi polloi would have known from their popularization via the morality plays and pageants. They're the very same bloomin' characters even! Come on, Love & Fame just before Time & Fortune, followed by Defamation & Death!! (Hmm. Sounds like the line-up at a Heavy Metal music fest! =)) ) Do you really believe that isn't an intended message from Paolo the cardmarker to you!? The 'null hypothesis' seems pretty null to me anyway. :-\
When a clock is hungry, it goes back four seconds.

Re: New book - "Explaining the Tarot"

#39
R.A. Hendley wrote:
SteveM wrote:
R.A. Hendley wrote:
My suggestion in closing the forum is that if the trumps are simply a meaningless hierarchy, as you suggest, their isn't much point in discussing what they might have meant.
One: It is not my suggestion.

Two: History is not about what things might have meant, but what they did (and do) mean to the people of the time, or rather what they were thought to mean, and how what they were thought to mean affected behaviour, attitude, culture and the evolution of any object or idea as an artifact of history. And the fact is that what Gebelin thought they meant had arguably far more impact historically than anything they might have meant (which is still up for debate). And the importance of this book (Explaining the Tarot) is in that it shows us what the Tarot sequence was thought to represent to two people of the renaissance, which may or may not be completely unrelated to any blueprint we care to imagine. As I understand it they are as speculative of anyones before of after, and as historically important and I for one am grateful for the work in making them available.

It is not meaningless to discuss, investigate or argue about what the allegorical figures in their sequence might have meant. However, as much as you opine otherwise, the 'null hypothesis' remains the baseline, naming a few themes among dozens it has in common from the time and prevalent in the education or fall of princes, moralities, plays and poetry doesn't negate that, but rather exemplifies it. Yes, it is full of such common themes as you mention and others of the time such as may be found in art, morality plays and poems in a roughly hierarchal order.

Both you and I see patterns in this order, as sane men and madmen do in inkblots; and you understand I am playing devils advocate here and still stand by my theory of the underlying theme of (augustinian) two loves, hierogamy and symmetry of the Tarot de Marseille pattern (I am not an advacate of one size/theory fits all - each pattern has its own tale or variation)
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Moralization versus Iconography

#40
SteveM wrote: edited to add: I just clicked on the visa and DD options and see they just take you to Paypal.
Aye. Pain in the derriere actually.
If I could buy it, I would read it and send it on to you. I had some books for you but you said Turkey was unreliable- so here they stay in a pile.
I have had times of not been able to eat let alone buy books. With age that has past.

As to the Null Hypothesis-it does give one the opportunity to endlessly speculate.
I like the underground one myself- looks like Salvation but is a cackling joke about Gambling;
Two Loves God and Gambling.
~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

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