Re: New book - "Explaining the Tarot"

#41
SteveM wrote:
History is not about what things might have meant, but what they did (and do) mean to the people of the time, or rather what they were thought to mean, and how what they were thought to mean affected behaviour, attitude, culture and the evolution of any object or idea as an artifact of history. And the fact is that what Gebelin thought they meant had arguably far more impact historically than anything they might have meant (which is still up for debate). And the importance of this book (Explaining the Tarot) is in that it shows us what the Tarot sequence was thought to represent to two people of the renaissance, which may or may not be completely unrelated to any blueprint we care to imagine. They are as speculative of anyones before of after. Are you saying we should dismiss them as irrelevant speculations, at odds with yours and MJH's 'authoritive' speculations, and thus of no interest on a historical forum?

Of course it is not meaningless to discuss, investigate or argue about what the allegorical figures in their sequence might have meant. However, as much as you opine otherwise, the 'null hypothesis' remains the baseline, naming a few themes among dozens it has in common from the time and prevalent in the education or fall of princes, moralities, plays and poetry doesn't negate that, but rather exemplifies it. Yes, it is full of such common themes as you mention and others of the time such as may be found in art, morality plays and poems in a roughly hierarchal order.

Of course we both see patterns in this order, as sane men and madmen do in inkblots; and you understand I am playing devils advocate here and still stand by my theory of the underlying theme of (augustinian) two loves, hierogamy and symmetry of the Tarot de Marseille pattern (I am not an advacate of one size/theory fits all - each pattern has its own tale or variation)

Well, I make no claims of knowing the methods that professional historians use to do research. I do know the methods of "Duck" however. If it looks like one, walks like one, and quacks like one....

I also certainly don't claim to be "an authority". I don't believe Mike Hurst does either. It isn't about Mr. Hurst, or anyone else. It is about the evidence. You may find these conclusions lacking, but I think given the evidence, they are highly probable. If by 'null hypothesis' you mean we may never know for absolute certain, then I agree. If, however you mean that any theory is just as good as any other, then I disagree. Some theories are simply more likely than others. A few are outright rubbish. Unless we channel the spirit of Paolo the card-maker, it is always going to be a issue of probability, never an absolute certainty. So, I reckon history is about "mights" after all. How can we ever know with absolute certainty why Cleopatra hooked up with that nasty ol' Caesar. We can take a pretty good educated guess though.

Anyway, let's have that wine & cheese!! @};-
When a clock is hungry, it goes back four seconds.

Re: New book - "Explaining the Tarot"

#42
a) In Renaissance Italy, the gap between popular and upper classes knowledge is small. This is clearly seen in the triumphal processions. Allegories are complex, with many symbols, and are thought to be knowledgeable, and enjoyed, by the people.

b) As Michel Pastoureau says, from the Middle Ages, Europeans are habituate to read a universe of meaning in the images. Negate the narrative intention of the triumphs of tarot is negate a thousand years of Western tradition in the reading of images.

c) Ok with the wine ^^
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: New book - "Explaining the Tarot"

#43
Yeah, SO arrived back at 6 this morning - and he brought me back a block of mature cheddar ( which is very kind of him, considering he is allergic to cheese and so can't touch the stuff himself). So, here to the wine and cheese:)
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Moralization versus Iconography

#44
Lorredan wrote:
SteveM wrote:I had some books for you but you said Turkey was unreliable- so here they stay in a pile.
Aye, well I haven't really tested it to honest, things seem to get through to my friends OK. I had a lot of trouble with UK post last couple of years I was there, some very expensive books went astray, a couple of meneghello decks and a Tarot de Paris that was sent to me as a gift:(
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: New book - "Explaining the Tarot"

#45
Your Dream wish list Tarot of Paris :-o
Oh that is sad.
That was as bad if not worse than the painted book!!!!!
I will be touch for address.If I get the Ross book I will read quick.
~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: New book - "Explaining the Tarot"

#46
mmfilesi wrote:a) In Renaissance Italy, the gap between popular and upper classes knowledge is small. This is clearly seen in the triumphal processions. Allegories are complex, with many symbols, and are thought to be knowledgeable, and enjoyed, by the people.
Community entertainments involved just that - the whole community, from high to low. Triumphal processions, mystery plays, carnivals and festivals required a lot of project management, fund-raising, employment of artisans for the making of sets, wagons, costumes and of poets for composition of songs, interludes, speeches and other set pieces. For festivals and processions the same poet may be employed to project manage as well as to write the set pieces of the wagons of the nobility as well as of the trade guilds.

The poet may indeed be a member of the nobility; Lorenzo de Medici for example wrote many of the carnival songs for the processional festivals of Florence in the later 15th century, usually played out at a festival for St. John. His most famous is his triumphal procession of Bachus and Ariadne, which has a sort of carpe diem theme, in which youth is extolled to pursue the pleasures of today because tomorrow is never certain; the songs he wrote for the trade guilds were bawdy and full of rude double entendres and occasional political jibes.

Such entertainments often did include as you say complex allegories. In terms of popular and upper class knowledge it was quite possible in 15th century Italian urban centers for a prince to share a class-room under the tutelage of a humanist teacher of high repute with the son of a butcher, baker or merchant, and even a poor peasant (there was a system for providing some free placements, but more usually the youngest son of poorer families was sent to school, the income of his older siblings being used to support the placement, with the expectation of course, that he would one day be in a position to be able to help out his family).
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: New book - "Explaining the Tarot"

#48
Lorredan wrote: I will be touch for address.If I get the Ross book I will read quick.
~Lorredan
That's very kind of you, thank you very much :ymhug:
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

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