Re: Tractatus de deficatione sexdecim heroum, text and translation

#61
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
20 Aug 2019, 08:32
Phaeded wrote:
20 Aug 2019, 05:45
All quotes from the accessible (and the first two important books are largely scanned by Google) translation by William Harris Stahl, E. L. Burge, Richard Johnson, Martianus Capella and the Seven Liberal Arts: The Marriage of Philology and Mercury, 1977.
Not accessible by my Google, unfortunately. EU or French restrictions often differ from what other countries, particularly the US, can view. Actually I can't see a single page of it - not even snippet view.
If his translation and notes for sections 41-61 are available, can you post images of those? I'd like to see at least what commentary he offers on the list, where he differs from Weinstock's interpretations, etc.
Here ya go:
M. Capella, Book II.41-61.pdf
(607.67 KiB) Downloaded 68 times
I'll email to you as well in case you can't open the pdf here.

Re: Tractatus de deficatione sexdecim heroum, text and translation

#62
I've been rereading Ross's book - a suggestion of a footnote for the translation of Marziano's "Apollo" section....

Perhaps Marziano didn't have a translation of Strabo's Geography available, but whatever the reason, he has conflated two places associated with Apollo, both place names beginning with the same spelling - Delos and Delphi:
To him was built in the first place, in the island of Delphi [Delpho] in the Aegean sea, a marvelous temple, from which the response of secrets used to be given by his oracle, very often still wrapped in obscurity (p 44-45).


Clearly the above is talking about the Sibylline/Pythia oracle at Delphi on mainland Greece, sitting on the slopes of Mount Parnassus, yet he has errantly included the Aegean island detail that pertains to Delos, confusingly also a major Apollo cult center (some archaeologists speculate Delphi was founded by priests from Delos, but that is besides the point: Delphi is not an island).

I'd simply add a brief note about Marziano's wayward conflation for the forthcoming scholarly work.

Also in Jove I'd translate the term re publica (p. 28) into the more neutral term "state" instead of "republic", for clearly Marziano does not mean Republican Rome, yet republic can unnecessarily be misleading in that regard. And given the Florence-Milan rivalry (and parallel Scipio-Caesar debate), "republic" would be the unlikeliest meaning in Ducal Milan (i.e., that Jupiter created/preferred republics). For the nuances of that Latin term, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Res_publica
Context is everything here: Jupiter as a law-giver preceding or perhaps coequal to the earliest Roman king period, which was followed by the Republican period, and lastly by the Imperial period.

Re: Tractatus de deficatione sexdecim heroum, text and translation

#64
Phaeded wrote:
27 Oct 2019, 17:26
...
Also in Jove I'd translate the term re publica (p. 28) into the more neutral term "state" instead of "republic", for clearly Marziano does not mean Republican Rome, yet republic can unnecessarily be misleading in that regard. And given the Florence-Milan rivalry (and parallel Scipio-Caesar debate), "republic" would be the unlikeliest meaning in Ducal Milan (i.e., that Jupiter created/preferred republics). For the nuances of that Latin term, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Res_publica
Context is everything here: Jupiter as a law-giver preceding or perhaps coequal to the earliest Roman king period, which was followed by the Republican period, and lastly by the Imperial period.
Obviously you'd want something other than Wiki here, and in that regard at some point you'll want to pick up this work:
Virtue Politics: Soulcraft and Statecraft in Renaissance Italy, December 17, 2019, by James Hankins.

I've merely flipped through this very recent publication and read random sections (its dense at 700+ pages), but you'll want to cite p. 75; the entire section is of course worth reading (from Harvard Press's on-line table of contents):
3. What Was a Republic in the Renaissance? [63-102]
The Renaissance Concept of the State
What Is the Meaning of Respublica in the Italian Renaissance? [the most relevant subsection for the problem identified above]
Respublica Romana
Respublica in Medieval Scholasticism
Leonardo Bruni and Respublica in the Fifteenth Century
Respublica: An Idealization of Ancient Government
Is Civic Humanism Found Only in Non-monarchical Republics?

https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php ... ontent=toc

Re: Tractatus de deficatione sexdecim heroum, text and translation

#65
Thanks Phaeded.

It looks like this 2010 paper will be relevant, perhaps mostly the same sources and conclusions -
https://www.academia.edu/22667987/Exclu ... l_Republic

Also good in the context of this thread are these remarks from Hankins on provisional Renaissance Latin editions -
https://www.academia.edu/22668048/Edito ... e_Comments

Our task with the Tractatus was almost the simplest imaginable - we had only two manuscripts, and fragmentary testimony of the third (which nevertheless provided a few variants, of uncertain value). Our edition is certainly "provisional," until we can see the manuscript in Vibo Valentia. It is, however, a good text, although I'm not willing to say we have certainly reconstructed the autograph (which itself may have contained errors).

Hankins' remarks on punctuation are excellent; Paris and Brescia differ immensely. I will be rigorous in reproducing both in the real provisional edition.

I like that he mentions Catherine Albinia de la Mare, whom he quotes at the end, indicating that he heard her, or was even one of her students. Albinia de la Mare was she who identified Michele Salvatico as the copyist of the Paris Tractatus de deificatione sexdecim heroum.
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Re: Tractatus de deficatione sexdecim heroum, text and translation

#66
:Ross: I have been going through your translation looking for sentences that were unclear to me in English, so I could at least suggest that you look at them again, if you ever do another, more scholarly edition of the same work.

I will start with Marcello's letter, already discussed briefly elsewhere:
Accidit eodem temporeut Scipio caraffa ex provintiae regionibus nuper rediret, quocum iucundissimae et humanissimae cum de Serenissimi regis consortis vestri et unici ac observandissimi domini mei optimo ac felicissimo statu sermonem haberem. Casu quodam ex eo ludo quem triumphum apellant, cartae quaedam oblatae mihi ac dono datae fuerunt. (p. 112)
Your translation (p. 113):
At that time it happened that Scipio Caraffa had just returned from the region of Provence. While I was most pleasantly and courteously discussing with him about the best and happiest condition of the most serene king, your consort and my only and very observant lord, by some chance, certain cards of this game which is called "Triumph" had been offered and given to me as a present.
It seems to me that what you have says that while in the midst of talking, certain cards had been given to him. That is not what is meant, as you have confirmed elsewhere. I can find nothing in the Latin that corresponds to the "while" preceded by a period. It seems to be your filler to avoid an awkward "with whom" to link the two parts of the sentence together. But it doesn't work. Here is the Latin:
Accidit eodem temporeut Scipio caraffa ex provintiae regionibus nuper rediret, quocum iucundissimae et humanissimae cum de Serenissimi regis consortis vestri et unici ac observandissimi domini mei optimo ac felicissimo statu sermonem haberem. Casu quodam ex eo ludo quem triumphum apellant, cartae quaedam oblatae mihi ac dono datae fuerunt.
A literal translation (and I offer a few variants to your choices of words) would be:
At that time it happened that Scipio Caraffa had just returned from the region of Provence, with whom I pleasantly and courteously spoke of the best and happiest condition of the most serene king, your consort and my lord alone worthy of the highest respect. By some chance some cards of the game they call triumph were presented and given to me as a gift
But the "with whom" is very awkward in English, because the antecedent for "whom" is too distant. So instead:
At that time it happened that Scipio Caraffa had just returned from the region of Provence. With him I most pleasantly and courteously spoke of the best and happiest condition of the most serene king, your consort and my lord uniquely worthy of the highest respect. By some chance some cards of the game they call Triumph were presented and given to me as a gift
In that case the imperfect subjunctive "haberem sermonem" is simply "had words" (spoke, discussed), not "was having words" (was speaking, was discussing). Also "fuerent" is "were" and not "had been". And the punctuation of the original is respected as much as possible.

Other than that, in Marcello all I see is one word choice that seems to me a little off: "moveable goods" rather than "furniture". And a typo: "pleasing" instead of "plea-sing".

In Marziano's text itself I noticed a few things that also seemed to me off, but they are very small things, just treat them as suggestions, from someone with a good ear for English but mostly ignorant of Latin. You do not have to reply; they are simply here for your consideration if you ever put out another edition.

In the part on Juno, you have "rank" as the translation for "loco", which everywhere else in that context is translated as "place". "Place" will work fine here, too.

In the section on Pallas, consider ending with "and thanks" rather than "and for giving thanks", both because it is closer to the Latin and because it suggests that the thanks are to Pallas, not thanks in general.

In the section on Venus, you have the sentence "Always favouring lovers, she was much disalike in temperament to her son Cupid. " Yet it is not clear, here or after, how the two differ; your translation leaves us hanging. The Latin is "Haec amantibus semper favens, longe moribus dispar est genito cupidini." The contrast is perhaps between love (Venus) and desire (Cupid), But we (in the 21st century) use "lovers" primarily for a relationship governed by desire. Perhaps there is a double meaning going on. So: "Always favouring loving, she is much disalike in temperament to her son Cupid [cupidinis, also meaning 'Desire']."

In the same section you have "And as a devotee of love, having had the delights, gratitude is to be paid to her." Something doesn't sound right. "As" makes "devotee of love" refer to Venus. Perhaps say "for" or "by" instead of "as".

In the section on Neptune, for "facundas", describing the Sirens' words, I think "eloquent" would be better than "fluent", because in relation to speaking the latter is more usually used about speaking a foreign language, and one might wonder if what was meant was how clearly they spoke sailors' languages.

In the part about Bacchus, you have "By his suggestion, after the grape had been discovered, human kind laid aside the drinking cup of streams and springs, and, after tasting pleasantness, they no longer quenched their thirst from rivers." The word "cup" is odd here, and I see nothing corresponding. in the Latin. Perhaps it should be "By his suggestion, after the grape had been discovered, human kind laid aside drinking from streams and springs, and, after tasting pleasantness, no longer quenched its thirst from rivers." Also, perhaps a "walking stick, from his name" should be changed to "walking stick [bacilus], from his name". In the last sentence of the section, there is a reference to Nysa, (Nisa, capitalized) which can refer either to the mountain where Bacchus was raised or to his nursemaid. You put in Helicon; but they are different mountains.

In the section on Mercury, instead of "source", I suggest "fount" (for "fontem"), to make the connection to "other streams" in the next sentence.

In the section on Mars: no comma between "soldiers" and "to be enthralled". Instead of "horrible" I suggest "frightful".

In the section on Ceres, you have "became worthless (to that extent we are guilty ones)". I think "was devalued (to that extent we are guilty)". Instead of "that cattle to be joined" I suggest "that cattle be joined".

In the section on Vesta, Instead of "like that of the nuns", I suggest "like that of nuns".

In the section on Aeolis, the referent of "his" in "his order" is not clear. In the English it would seem to be Jupiter. But in the Latin I do not see this implication. Nor do I see where "order" is in the Latin. Also where do you get "even if"? Why not just "if", in which case it is simply Aeolis to whom is conceded the power to soothe the waves, etc.

In the section on Daphne, instead of "the eagerness", consider "her eagerness". Instead of "by the banks of the grassy waves" consider "by the grassy banks of the waves". Instead of "that she thereby" consider just "where she". Instead of "and decreed", consider "decreeing them". Instead of "there is especially the laurel singled out by Phoebus; ..." consider "the laurel is especially singled out by Phoebus, ..."

In the section on Cupid, instead "is lead into captivity, and it is impossible to offer any further and difficult opposition, not to lead the neck up by the yoke." consider "is led into captivity, and to resist further is very difficult and not allowed, nor to separate the neck from the yoke". Also, instead of "victor of these", consider "victor over these".

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