A Carnival Song by Lorenzo de' Medici

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Re: A Carnival Song by Lorenzo de' Medici

Postby SteveM on 12 Jul 2011, 05:17

SteveM wrote:Are the ladies being asked to pay for a sweetmeat here, or to gamble some money to win one? If so perhaps something like 'place a bet and play your pretty penny' may make this aspect clearer?


Or use 'bet' or 'place' instead of 'spend/pay' ?

This thing we young men make an art of:
it's enough that our sweetmeats are good.
Don't wait for someone to give you one:
best to bet your pretty pennies and play.

Making the gambling aspect clear(er) here makes sense then of why card games are suddenly introduced...

We have cards and could play Bassetta... ?

...
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot
SteveM
 
Location: Turkey
Favorite Deck: Crowley/Harris Thoth
Aliases: kwaw, koy deli,

Re: A Carnival Song by Lorenzo de' Medici

Postby SteveM on 12 Jul 2011, 08:32

marco wrote:Ask for “without man”, “below” or “above”^;
you shake from your head to your toes
until it [the chosen card] comes; and when it comes
you see strange faces, and kitten-like whimpering.


Hi Marco,

I am not sure 'shaking' conveys the sense of being consumed by yearning, hope, expectation, longing in 'struggi dal' ?

I think in this context 'kitten-like whimpering' would be 'moaning like a pussy' in idiomatic english:

Declare "without man", "above" or “below”;
then shake with longing from head to feet
until it comes, and when it comes you see
the funny faces of the pussies that moan.

For those who are below will then glower,
they wiggle and make faces like monkeys;
their goods all gone, they pout and roll their eyes,
the miserable wretches even weep.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot
SteveM
 
Location: Turkey
Favorite Deck: Crowley/Harris Thoth
Aliases: kwaw, koy deli,

Re: A Carnival Song by Lorenzo de' Medici

Postby SteveM on 13 Jul 2011, 14:25

Hi Marco, using yours as crib I have had a go myself as an exercise -

I have had a few problems and still not sure I have understood it quite right.
I don't understand the no'/non in non che i confortini and No' abbiam carte for example - and I don't know where you get nuts from in the last line? Re: 'without man', I wonder if that could mean 'not a court card'? So you can guess 'higher', 'lower' or 'not a court card'?

The Song of the Sweetmeat Sellers

Ladies, we have candied plums and sweetmeats!
If you want some, ours are the best.

We need not show how to make them,
it's too much trouble, a waste of time,
and she who wastes time, as many do,
ends up eating alone from little pots.

When it’s your time, do what you want to,
don't feel embarrassed or dirty:
who hasn’t the goods beg a neighbour;
good neighbours give to each other.

This thing we young men make an art of:
it's enough that our sweetmeats are good.
Don't hang around to be given one:
you should spend your money and play.

We've got cards and could play basset:
it needs one to raise, another to bet;
then again and again back and forth throw
the cards; you guess mine, or I take yours.

Declare "without man", "above" or “below”
and shake with longing from head to toes
until it comes, and when it comes you'll see
the funny faces of the pussies that moan.

Whoever's below will then glower,
wiggle and make monkey faces;
all they had gone, they pout, roll their eyes,
the miserable wretches even cry.

Who overcomes, they jump in sweetness,
mock and sneer, splashing all over you;
but to have faith in fortune is crazy,
in time by turn the bender will be bent.

This basset is a very quick game;
you can play it standing up, any place;
its only sore point, it doesn’t last long;
but it often pleases those with small cups.

There is flush*, which is a cursed* game:
and those who want to come out clean
bid little by little, are prudent and mean;
these days even farmers do the same.

Whoever puts his all in a bid,
if a flush arrives, is in a sorry plight;
seeing him, he looks like a man maimed:
that Sforza Bettini be damned!

Pull out is a poor game, pinch is often
used, and straight up no one regrets.
Those with a good hand do what they want;
as do those with a large stock of florins.

If you want to play as we have shown,
we are happy to stake all we have
in a bid, here and now between yours,
right up to the box, with our sweetmeats.

* Berricuocoli I am reading as 'berricocoli' 'apricock-plums'. (Florio)
The Apricock-plums, they are of several Sorts.; the white Sort, which is large, round, and of an extraordinary rich Flavour, and is accounted one of the best Plums: The red, this is like the Imperial-plum, is larger than the following, and has the Flavour of an Apricock. The yellow, which is large and long, but not so large as the former, having a dry Flesh. (Miller)


However, I have seen berricocoli translated into Spanish as 'confites' (Casas) -confites - a candy treat consisting of dried fruit , nuts , seeds or spices coated with caramel of sugar - so have combined the two sources to come up with candied plums. Plums and sweetmeat(s) are both common euphenisms for sexual organs (testicles and penis) in keeping with the nature of the original.

Re: women/ladies ~ when addressing women it's more customary in english to say 'ladies'.

*Flusso (Flow) - As well as meaning a 'flush' at cards, it also means ‘a woman’s monthely flowers'. (Florio) I have chosen 'curse' here in preference to damned - as the word play being made here with coming out clean, unstained or looking 'like a wounded man' is to la maledizione delle mestruazioni which is rendered 'the curse of menstruation' in english. I know I may be reading this wrong as at the Tretre site they seem to be (over) emphasising reading some sort of 'dirty flow' from the act of sodomy here - I think it is more ambiguous than that.

Florio's 1611 Italian/English Dictionary: Queen Anna's New World of Words
Philip Miller 1724 The gardeners and florists dictionarym or a complete system of horticulture.
Cristóbal de las Casas 1570 Vocabulario de las dos lenguas toscana y Castellana
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot
SteveM
 
Location: Turkey
Favorite Deck: Crowley/Harris Thoth
Aliases: kwaw, koy deli,

Re: A Carnival Song by Lorenzo de' Medici

Postby SteveM on 13 Jul 2011, 20:21

SteveM wrote:
* Berricuocoli I am reading as 'berricocoli' '


Found some support for that:

Berricocoli Donne, et confortini. Chigi M VII 142, f. 309v (Lorenzo de Medici). - Incipitario della lirica italiana dei secoli XV-XX: Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana. Fondo Chigi Fabio Carboni 1982

Recipes for all manner of Confortini (sweet morsels) can be found (in Italian) on p.54/55 here:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=lyMa ... &q&f=false
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot
SteveM
 
Location: Turkey
Favorite Deck: Crowley/Harris Thoth
Aliases: kwaw, koy deli,

Re: A Carnival Song by Lorenzo de' Medici

Postby SteveM on 16 Jul 2011, 04:29

marco wrote:
SteveM wrote: Some of the obvious connotations are a little obscured in interpretative gloss I think, for example instead of 'and she who loses it, as many do/must then perforce use (make do with) little pots' is somewhat different to 'many women waste time and thereafter / they have to be all alone.'


Hello Steve, I have corrected those two lines according to your suggestion.


hmmm... but the literal translation results in awkward phrasing, and the original according to the crib at tretre implies ending up eating alone - how about 'ends up eating alone from little pots' as in my modified version above?
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot
SteveM
 
Location: Turkey
Favorite Deck: Crowley/Harris Thoth
Aliases: kwaw, koy deli,

Re: A Carnival Song by Lorenzo de' Medici

Postby SteveM on 16 Jul 2011, 11:42

marco wrote:Ironically, on youtube a nice interpretation of the first stanzas is used to introduce a composition in praise of the Holy Virgin.


Very nice - they use just the two main verses:

Ladies! We have candied plums and sweetmeats:
if you want some, then ours are a treat.

Don’t ask how they're made, we won’t show you,
it’s a waste of time, to much trouble to go to;
please don’t waste your time, like so many do,
and end up eating alone from little pots,
tiny little pots.

Ladies! We have candied plums and sweetmeats:
if you want some, then ours are a treat.

This art we young men make our living on:
it’s enough we have the finest buns!
Please don’t wait around to be given one,
you should spend your time on play and pay us
a pretty penny, your pretty penny.

Ladies! We have candied plums and sweetmeats:
if you want some, then ours are a treat.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot
SteveM
 
Location: Turkey
Favorite Deck: Crowley/Harris Thoth
Aliases: kwaw, koy deli,

Re: A Carnival Song by Lorenzo de' Medici

Postby marco on 17 Jul 2011, 08:38

SteveM wrote:Hi Marco, using yours as crib I have had a go myself as an exercise -


Hello Steve, your translation is excellent, well done :)
Feel free to update the tarotpedia page anytime!

I have had a few problems and still not sure I have understood it quite right.
I don't understand the no'/non in non che i confortini and No' abbiam carte for example - and I don't know where you get nuts from in the last line? Re: 'without man', I wonder if that could mean 'not a court card'? So you can guess 'higher', 'lower' or 'not a court card'?


"Non che" in modern Italian would be "nonchè" http://www.wordreference.com/iten/nonch%C3%A9

No' abbiamo = noi abbiamo

I agree that "nuts" in the last verse does not make sense. "Box" is much better.

About Berricuocolo, I really have no idea. See note 1 in Zorli's page.
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marco
 
Favorite Deck: Sola-Busca

Re: A Carnival Song by Lorenzo de' Medici

Postby SteveM on 17 Jul 2011, 10:37

marco wrote:
SteveM wrote:Hi Marco, using yours as crib I have had a go myself as an exercise -


Hello Steve, your translation is excellent, well done :)


Thanks Marco - translation is too ambitious a word, I wouldn't be able to make head or tail of it without yours to crib from :)

Feel free to update the tarotpedia page anytime!


OK - but please correct / amend as need be -

"Non che" in modern Italian would be "nonchè" http://www.wordreference.com/iten/nonch%C3%A9

No' abbiamo = noi abbiamo


Thanks for the explanation - I will try and remember for future reference.

I agree that "nuts" in the last verse does not make sense. "Box" is much better.


Florio also has 'cash-box' - which also make sense, 'up to the cash-box, as well as our sweetmeats'.

About Berricuocolo, I really have no idea. See note 1 in Zorli's page.


Well, as I referenced at least one manuscript reads berricocoli - and in Florio's Italian - English dictionary it defines berricocoli as 'apricock-plumbes' - and in 16th century tale I read 'The knight had a tree with big 'berricocoli' in his garden.' And a tree with big plums would make better sense in English in that context than 'a tree with big spices'. Also to say 'we (boys) have plums and sweetmeats' is clearer carnivalesque for 'we boys have cocks and balls' than 'spice' is. Also I disagree with zorli's note 2: there are many types of 'confortini' as there are many types of biscuits and cakes for example: it is a more generic term than the recipe they give which is more for a specific type of confortini. In that sense I think 'sweetmeats' is more accurate a description in that it too is a generic term, also it is an established euphenism for 'penis' in keeping the underlying theme of sexual innuendo.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot
SteveM
 
Location: Turkey
Favorite Deck: Crowley/Harris Thoth
Aliases: kwaw, koy deli,

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