Re: 1565 Discourse about the Images of Tarot

#11
I have typed in the Italian original, that is now available on the same Tarotpedia pages.


Re-reading the text, I noticed that there are at least three explicit references to Platonic dialogues:

1. The definition of "vulgar Love" (pg.14) (I guess this is a reference to the Symposium).

2. Daemons as the intermediate level between earth and heaven and as sons of the Gods (pg.19). Piscina makes reference to The Apology of Socrates:
Plato wrote:Socrates: Now what are spirits or demigods? are they not either gods or the sons of gods? Is that true?
Meletus Yes, that is true.
3. The perfection of number four (pg.25), with reference to Ficino's comment of Timaeus.

Marco

Re: 1565 Discourse about the Images of Tarot

#12
Absolutely wonderful, Marco! you deserve a medal.

I had begun to do it myself, to give you a break, but obviously, being familiar with the language gives one a certain advantage ;)

I think you are probably the foremost expert on the text now - as Bill Thayer says at the LacusCurtius site (somewhere)
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... /home.html
"He who copies well, understands well" (it's in Latin there though - he has put all of his texts in by hand).

What an achievement!

Ross

(edited to add: would you like to begin incorporating annotations to the text, like with the Germini poem? There are the Platonic references and the Gl'Ingannati comedy now...)
Image

Re: 1565 Discourse about the Images of Tarot

#13
marco wrote:I have typed in the Italian original, that is now available on the same Tarotpedia pages.
Fantastic Marco, thankyou so much - where do references such as Plato go, in the 'discussion' area? (of the tarotpedia entry).
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: 1565 Discourse about the Images of Tarot

#17
Huck wrote:no Empress, no Papessa, but Emperors and Popes ... and Emperors can occasionally beat Popes, so these 4 cards are of same ranking.
Couldn't we suppose as a possibility that the plural forms may be understood as "Imperor and Impress, Pope and Popess" ?
Which is last trump, World or Angel? I think it is world, or are there others opinions?
The text seems unclear, from the description we can read that there is
- "Angel ..., singing and playing" who is rejoicing
- "blessed souls triumph[ing]"
Which corresponds to the Angel/"Le jugement" card
Then we have "before the Celestial paradise" (so maybe another card ?) "the image of the world in the middle of these four Holy Evangelists", which corresponds to the world/"Le Monde" card.

To me there are two differents trumps described here.

The description of the whole trumps would stick quite closely to the Viéville Tarot as Ross pointed out - although some elements are missing from the description, nothing goes against this association. That is if we accept the supposition that the Empress and Popess are indicated within "Imperatori e Papi", and that the last description is about two distinct trumps (angel & world).
Anyway, even if these suppositions are left as false, it's still quite close regarding the trumps order, especially starting from the Love to the last on (may it be the angel or the world or both of them).

Regarding the order of the last two, Angel and World, we have to note that the angel is described before the world, hence an element to suppose its numbering is lower.
The italian version says "ha prima dell' imagine del Paradiso fatto un ritratto d' essi quattro Evangelisti" (where Paradiso would designate the Angel), does it means that the image is before the Paradiso, or that is was made before the Paradiso but still appears in the "regular" sequence ? Piscina sees this world card as the key to Paradiso, and maybe as a synthesis of the cards up to the "last one".

Bertrand

Re: 1565 Discourse about the Images of Tarot

#18
Bertrand wrote:Hello,
I have been lurking for some time on this forum, I suppose it was time to first write here to let you know that I took the liberty to (poorly) partially translate in French some parts, and to sum up other parts from the Piscina's discorso's english translation .
Thanks a lot for giving online access to both the english translation and the original italian text.

Bertrand
Wonderful work, Bertrand! Thank you. That is a very good way to introduce yourself.

My French is poor (although I live in France), but it seems to me to be a good translation/summary.

I am sure it is alright to borrow the images of the text (like the title page) for your blog too.

Now I hope that some speakers of other languages will translate it too - certain German and Spanish speaking members come to mind...

Hats off to you!

Ross
Image

Re: 1565 Discourse about the Images of Tarot

#19
Bertrand wrote:Couldn't we suppose as a possibility that the plural forms may be understood as "Imperor and Impress, Pope and Popess" ?
I believe this is what he had before him. However, he was writing from a Piedmont perspective, which called these cards "Papi" (in Savoy "Papots"), and counted them as equal in play, despite having numbers on the cards they played with.

In his interpretation of the symbolism, he mixes the rules of the game with the numbering on the cards. So with the Papi, he knows what the pictures say (perhaps with no titles yet), but he also knows what the rules say, so he combines them.
The text seems unclear, from the description we can read that there is
- "Angel ..., singing and playing" who is rejoicing
- "blessed souls triumph[ing]"
Which corresponds to the Angel/"Le jugement" card
Then we have "before the Celestial paradise" (so maybe another card ?) "the image of the world in the middle of these four Holy Evangelists", which corresponds to the world/"Le Monde" card.

To me there are two differents trumps described here.

The description of the whole trumps would stick quite closely to the Viéville Tarot as Ross pointed out - although some elements are missing from the description, nothing goes against this association. That is if we accept the supposition that the Empress and Popess are indicated within "Imperatori e Papi", and that the last description is about two distinct trumps (angel & world).
Anyway, even if these suppositions are left as false, it's still quite close regarding the trumps order, especially starting from the Love to the last on (may it be the angel or the world or both of them).

Regarding the order of the last two, Angel and World, we have to note that the angel is described before the world, hence an element to suppose its numbering is lower.
The italian version says "ha prima dell' imagine del Paradiso fatto un ritratto d' essi quattro Evangelisti" (where Paradiso would designate the Angel), does it means that the image is before the Paradiso, or that is was made before the Paradiso but still appears in the "regular" sequence ? Piscina sees this world card as the key to Paradiso, and maybe as a synthesis of the cards up to the "last one".

Bertrand
You are right.

It is commonly accepted (I would think) that Piscina is describing the order where World is numbered XXI. But again, the Piedmont rules dictate that the Angel XX is the higher card in play. Thus he fudges the details here, and combines the symbolism to make his point, as I pointed out in my earlier post to Huck.

"prima dell'imagine" means "before (avant) the image/picture", which shows that he was ignoring the numbering on the cards in his Piedmontese pack and following the rules where the Angel (Paradiso) is higher.

Ross
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