Re: The World

#41
Hello Marcos,

I think the problem is not that there are too few possibilities indicated in the art and literature of the time, but that there are just far too many. My idea, (my moment of enlightenment if you like... :idea: ) is that we have to put all those sparkling and distracting little treasures aside (just momentarily), and in order to see clearly and pull together a coherent meaning for the sequence, go back to the very beginning. Or perhaps not the very beginning, but to a particular moment. A new approach to the puzzle. Or maybe my idea has been tried before and I'm wasting my time... (%)

Pen
He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy...

Re: The World

#42
Yes, it is a good strategy.

Well, in the case of Tarot de Marseille I asume this premises:

1. The iconographic codes should be understood by the people. In a luxury deck (as PMB or tarot of the Medici), the artist can develop codes cults, for an intellectual elite. But a deck Tarot de Marseille should be understood by the common people.

2. A good way to understand the visual culture of ordinary people in the sixteenth and seventeenth century is the theater, the television of this time :) . Inside the theater there are some pieces of particular interest, such as morality plays. For example, I see the same christian discourse of the tarot in the Cortes de la Muerte of Lope de Vega.
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: The World

#43
I think my post disappeared.

My thought is this: If the dancing figure in the World is feminine divine mercy, wouldn't that be the Virgin Mary--she's the closest to a "goddess" in Christianity.

Now isn't that a thought. No Jesus, just Mary.

Re: The World

#44
Debra wrote
My thought is this: If the dancing figure in the World is feminine divine mercy, wouldn't that be the Virgin Mary--she's the closest to a "goddess" in Christianity.

Now isn't that a thought. No Jesus, just Mary..
That is what Vitali suggests, as I recall, due to the lunette. But even he is careful to say that similar lunettes surrounded other figures, for example Venus in a wedding chest image he supplies.

Divine Mercy could also be Isis, who stood behind Osiris's throne to welcome those favored by her husband's favorable judgment; or any of the various goddesses who foregave sins. What might help in narrowing the possibilities, besides the lunette, is identifying the objects in her hands. Is that a Queen of Heaven's scepter in her left hand, or a magician's wand, for example, or both? And what about her right hand? Is that a sistrum from the Isis cult, a phial of some sort, a small sized wand, or what?

mmfilesi wrote,
Well, in the case of Tarot de Marseille I asume this premises:

1. The iconographic codes should be understood by the people. In a luxury deck (as PMB or tarot of the Medici), the artist can develop codes cults, for an intellectual elite. But a deck Tarot de Marseille should be understood by the common people.

2. A good way to understand the visual culture of ordinary people in the sixteenth and seventeenth century is the theater, the television of this time . Inside the theater there are some pieces of particular interest, such as morality plays. For example, I see the same christian discourse of the tarot in the Cortes de la Muerte of Lope de Vega.
This is as good a pace as any to argue against your pont 1. Iconography was characteristically polysemous, with many meanings in different frames of reference. There could be one easy to understand meaning for the people, and others for the erudite (humanists, courts), or the politically suppressed (e.g. alchemists, Kabbalists, Hermetics). In that way a deck not only sells to the masses, but perhaps gets patronage as well, from those who sponsor the erudite references.

I agree with point 2. But here is where polysemous imagery proliferates. I am thinking of Shakespeare, perhaps Cervantes. There were meanings for the "groundlings"--those too poor to buy a seat--another for those in the private boxes. Some plays even had two versions, a short one for the masses and a longer one for the court. There were also novellas, which assume literacy but not in more than one language. They are in the middle.

Commedia del Arte should be a late reference point if theatre is a model. It developed from plays for the courts, which in turn came from classical sources. The "Braggart Captain" is an example: he is already in Plautus, a play by that name, also called the Miles Gloriosus, the source for one of Aretino's plays in Italian.

Re: The World

#45
Hi dear friend, :)

Yes, maybe. But in any case, the apparent meaning must be understandable. If we put a woman over the World, nude and surrounded by the Tetramorphos-hide it a secret message or not (I think not)- should be, necesarily, a picture that people can understand. We're talking about millions of cards, according to Dummett. And the people didn't understand the complicated codes related with the Kabbalah, alchemy and Neoplatonism, but yes the Christian processions, the Christian churches, the Bible....
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: The World

#46
Hello,
mmfilesi wrote:Yes, maybe. But in any case, the apparent meaning must be understandable. If we put a woman over the World, nude and surrounded by the Tetramorphos-hide it a secret message or not (I think not)- should be, necesarily, a picture that people can understand.
Seeing how nowadays players don't give a damn about the meaning of the cards, what makes you think if would have been different then ?
Given the scarce numer of written documents about the meaning of the cards, given that they don't seem to have more clues than we do, I sincerely thought it was quite reasonable to assume people (thousands or millions) who bought the cards and played them simply didn't care at all about the meanings of the cards, for their vast majority.
Plus they didn't have internet to quickly check at the time and books were scarce too among the people, so they must have been more concerned about making money - or trying not to lose too much - hence why would a cardmaker care about the people being able to understand the cards ?

Bertrand

Re: The World

#47
Hi Bertrand :)

Surely the people are not interested in knowing what's mean the tarot images?

Well, let's test. We can search in Google the phrase "what's mean tarot images"

7.100.000 results :)

why in the XVIII century are diferent?

I think in the past as the present, people ask what mean the images of their favorite game. This can explain, for example, the triumph of Gebellin-Eteilla.
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: The World

#48
mmfilesi wrote: I think in the past as the present, people ask what mean the images of their favorite game. This can explain, for example, the triumph of Gebellin-Eteilla.
Or that the fantastic narratives of Gebellin-Eteilla created a popular interest...
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The World

#49
Surely before the cards were numbered, people must have had the knowledge to see what the images represented in order to know their sequence/value and to play the game. It's logical to suppose that the numbers appeared because they were needed - the images had become less recognisable, either because they'd mutated or because the players had lost touch with what they represented and the order had become unclear.

Pen
He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy...

Re: The World

#50
Hello,

I believe Steve hits the point here, 7 millions + results on Google nowadays in the XXIst century, two essays on the meaning of Tarot cards and a few other documents alluding them in the centuries from the moment cards appeared up to Court de Gébelin.

Pen, I'm not even sure the meaning was needed in order to play, as long as an order was agreed upon and people had short more or less standard names to remember which card was what, hence those different local orders even until the cards are finally numbered - possibly in order to avoid disputes about the correct order. I mean you're right in the beginning some people may have known a logical order related to the cards signification, but long before the cards were numbered the signification was probably long forgotten and only approximative names and conventionnal orders were used : look at how different games played with the standard pack use different ordering, not always related to the cards number.

Bertrand

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