Re: The World

#31
I have just finished wading through a book on Ancient & Medieval Talismans and Amulets from all over the world and was surprised to find the following........
Venice: Talisman for making riches.

Fortuna a lovely female nude, in a wisp of cloth, standing on a sphere holding a rods, within a heart -drawn on virgin parchment on the day and hour of Jupiter, the scheme of the heavens wearing a fortunate aspect. One rod below has reluctante and the other above *erium fortuna- then rolled into a small scroll and fastened upon your hat.

It goes much to my thoughts that the images are somehow connected to game playing rather than primarily a Christian tableau.
* I think that should have been written as the Latin Etiam, because I do not think there is such a word as erium. Etiam means= still greater.
~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: The World

#32
A lovely emblematic engraving from Adam McLean's weblog.
Adam's comment: Joris was a mid 16th century Dutch Anabaptist, who, although initially a conventional Protestant, later became influenced by visions, and apocalyptic enthusiasms and came to see himself as a kind of prophet. His main book 't Wonderboeck was first printed in 1542, but this engraving comes from a later edition.
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Re: The World

#33
XV. ANONYMOUS, FLORENTINE. THE RESURRECTION WITH THE TABLE FOR FINDING EASTER
The earliest Italian engraving to bear a date (1461). British Museum
TheEarliestItalianEngravingWithDate.jpg
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From Andrea Mantegna and the Pre-Raphaelite Engravers - Edited by Arthur M. Hind, p.35

As it represents the resurrection perhaps though it should be in the 'Judgment' thread?
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The World

#34
From: Petrarca, Francesco / Bruno, Gabriello / Centonus, Hieronymus: Trionfi 1497



http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/bsb ... /image_264

There are other trionfi illustrated in this volume too - seemingly printed from the same blocks as the series that included the earlier Triumph of Love (1492/3) I posted on the Strength thread. The only difference that I can see is that God has been cut out of the semicircle at the top of the border. I wonder why - perhaps he became damaged, or maybe that part of the block was separate and therefore removable.

It's possible that the border was a separate printing block from the central scene, and would therefore suffer more wear and tear, but I'd have thought that God was well-protected in his arch.

Edited to add that the same border has also been used in Dante <Alighieri> / Landinus, Christophorus / Ficinus, Marsilius: La Commedia:

Pen
He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy...

Re: The World

#35
I spent some time yesterday looking at the print above, also the one I've just posted on the Judgement thread,( post #6 ) and had a moment of what seemed like enlightenment.

Suppose Christ is not depicted on the Tarot de Marseille Judgement cards for no other reason than that he was needed for the final triumph - the Triumph of Divinity - the last and greatest trump of all? The 'World' title need not be a problem - the image of Christ might simply be either a sidestep or a different way of illustrating the original concept on the older tarots, and stand as a shortened version of The Light of the World.

The dancing maiden in the later TdMs may simply have evolved (for whatever reason) from the Christ figures in the Dodal and Noblet (if that's what they are, as I believe).

Pen
He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy...

Re: The World

#36
Hi Pen, I agree. Although some people (Lorredan, for example) have persuasive arguments that Christ does not and could not appear in these old decks, I assume that the dancing figure is Christ. Who or what else would be the "end all be all" of the trumps?

Also, may be a hermaphrodite.

Re: The World

#37
Hi Debra,

Reading through my post again, it almost seems too simplistic. After all, we've already discussed the World figure pretty exhaustively; some have decided that it almost certainly represented Christ in the earliest TDMs, some have more complex explanations.

It was the slight shift to seeing the card/figure as specifically a Triumph of Divinity (rather than as representing the ruler of the New Jerusalem/Paradise/the World to Come) that seemed to bring the meaning of the sequence into better focus for me. It felt as if I'd found the key.

I hesitate to mention feelings on a history forum, but mine are that the sequence/narrative/meanings of the basic game of tarot could be as clear and uncomplicated as Time appeared after OnePotato had identifiied the mechanism on his back as an oliot verge escapement on the Casa Rella thread.

I must look again at sequence and meanings, think a lot and try not to post so often....

Pen
He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy...

Re: The World

#38
Oh my goodness, Pen, don't post less!

Even if someone isn't reading cards as a fortune-teller, or for insight--trying to find a "purely historical" meaning is a form of reading. And I think that for any form of sensitive looking, a big element of feeling and insight is necessary. I know exactly what you mean about how the slightest shift of perspective can make everything fall into place. I just got a little "ah ha" myself about temperance (a card that bores me) from reading a card description in a book that I otherwise would not recommend. Sequencing, I feel more ambivalence, because different sequences are found in the early decks, and the more specific explanations of "why X is trumped by Y and Y by Z" tend to feel forced. My ignorance, maybe. In some decks, the World comes before Judgement. Now what's that all about?

Post more, post more!
\:D/

Re: The World

#40
Hi dear Pen, :)

I believe the female figure of the Tarot of Marseille will probably be the Divine Mercy or perhaps the Providence. I need explain this in spanish, sorry, and then translate with Google.

si el patrón de Marsella debía de entenderse y aceptarse por el pueblo, donde debemos buscar las claves para interpretar la figura femenina del mundo es en la cultura popular antes que en la literatura neoplatónica. En este sentido, es interesante buscar alegorías femeninas en las obras de teatro popular donde se abordaba el juicio final y aquí, según explica Julio I. González Montañés en su tesis doctoral, destacan la justicia y la misericordia:

«A la influencia teatral atribuye también Mâle la aparición en el Juicio Final de la Justicia y la Misericordia, rasgo poco frecuente que se encuentra en el Juicio de Chinon y en una tapicería del Louvre que Mâle relaciona con el Mystere du jour dou Jugement en el que ambas disputan con los siete pecados capitales a los que la Justicia acaba arrojando al Infierno exactamente como sucede en el tapiz mencionado. El paralelo entre tapiz y teatro es sorprendente pero existe una fuente común para ambos que Mâle desconoce: los sermones. Desde finales del siglo XIII (Speculum Laicorum) los predicadores presentan a las dos Virtudes, junto con la Virgen, disputando con el Diablo en el Juicio Final».

......... Google translation:

if the pattern of Marseille should be understood and accepted by the people, we must seek the key to interpret the female figure in the world is in popular culture rather than Neoplatonic literature. In this regard it is interesting to look feminine allegories in popular plays which dealt with the final trial and here, says Julian I. González Montanes in his doctoral thesis, highlight the justice and mercy:

"A theatrical influence Mâle also attributed the appearance in the Final Judgement of Justice and Mercy, a feature rarely found in the Trial of Chinon and the Louvre on a tapestry that relates Mâle Mystere dou jour du Jugement in both contend with the seven deadly sins to which the Justice has just throwing the hell exactly as in the tapestry mentioned. The parallel between carpet and theater is amazing but there is a common source for both that Mâle unknown: the sermons. From the late thirteenth century (Speculum Laicorum) preachers have the two virtues, along with the Virgin, disputing with the devil on Judgement Day. "
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

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