Re: The World

#21
I have spent some time now looking at the Four Evangelists in various manuscripts- Churches etc.
The order is Counterclockwise when in a block like the medieval Mandorla and left to right when on a building facade.

The Bible is Mathew, Mark, Luke and John and on the pages I have seen the order is typically

1 Mathew Left top........4 John Right top
2 Mark Left Bottom.......3 Luke Right Bottom

but variations 4.......3
.................1........2 remain counterclockwise as also on the clock in the Florence Cathedral which itself runs counterclockwise. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flore ... -Clock.jpg

Yet in Tarot on the world card of the Marseille variety the order is different
1.........4
3.........2

Anyone have any idea why?

~Lorredan

I meant to add that in rose windows where the four symbols appear they are Mathew in the North, Luke in the South, John in the east, and Luke in the west.
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: The World

#22
Hello,
Lorredan wrote:Yet in Tarot on the world card of the Marseille variety the order is different
1.........4
3.........2

Anyone have any idea why?
not an answer here, but note how Vieville uses the first order you describe, with left to right angel and eagle on top, and left to right lion and ox on the bottom of the card, while the rest of the card is not very modified compared to other Tarot de Marseille examples (Sforza castle, Noblet)

Bertrand

Re: The World

#23
yes Bertrand, the Vieville is the anomaly placing the four counterclockwise
1.....4
2.....3 as mandorlas were and still are.

Strange eh? It is the Vieville that has the most definite Christ in the centre also.
I cannot find any liturgical reason for the counterclockwise either.

~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: The World

#24
I brought this up in a conversation with Jean-Michel several years ago. I too thought it was interesting that the Vieville seemed to match what I was seeing in artwork and architecture. Jean-Michel cautioned me to not place too much into it as, if I continued to explore I'd find examples of the evangelists in many different orders. Which is exactly what happened, enough to discourage me from posting about it. There seems to have been enough variety that I couldn't find enough of one type to state that it was indeed "the standard".

That said, I think Vieville is right. :x ;;)

Image
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: The World

#25
Ha! Robert I have not found any order that is clockwise though. If you know of one I would be pleased to see it. I must have looked at well over 500 examples =)) My bookcase is in total disarray- stuff everywhere......I need to get a life.
~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: The World

#26
This one doesn't quite count because it is made to be seen from either direction: "The four Evangelists on the 13th-c. ceiling of the choir in Stiftskirche St. Moriz in Rottenburg am Neckar." Interesting, the names are wrong on Mark and Matthew.



from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Germa ... elists.jpg

--

I'll keep an eye out.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: The World

#27
robert wrote: Interesting, the names are wrong on Mark and Matthew.
I can't remember the details off hand, but if I remember correctly there are a couple of variations in the attribution of the apostles to the holy animals among the Church fathers.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The World

#28
In another thread, Robert proposed a diagram that was originally posted by R.A. Hendly:
Image


Here you can see the original Latin version: it is from a 1122 English manuscript.

I think this could be relevant in understanding the Tarot de Marseille world card because:
* the centre can be interpreted both as Man (Homo) and World (Mundus)
* the centre is surrounded by the four cosmological principles (the elements in the diagram,the symbols of the four evangelists in the card).

Another image that is somehow similar to the Tarot de Marseille world and has been referenced many times. The English version has lost the cross at the top of the World.

Marco

Re: The World

#29
marco wrote:
I think this could be relevant in understanding the Tarot de Marseille world card because:
* the centre can be interpreted both as Man (Homo) and World (Mundus)
*
The world, the year and man are called the 'three faithful witnesses' in the SY : the 22 letters of the hebrew alphabet having are engraved in each. For example, the 12 doubles are connected with the 12 constellations of the world, the 12 months of the year, and 12 organs of Man (male and female); the seven singles to the seven planets in the world, the seven days of the weeks, and the seven openings in the head of Man (male and female). While it differs to the diagram here in postulating 3 instead fo the traditional four elements the theory being proposed is similar I think, that all these elements can be attributed variously to the world, year and man connecting the three in one. The micro-macro cosmic relationship between space, time and being (or/and, the micro-macrocosmic relationship between these 'three in one' and the (triune) one that is above them all).
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The World

#30
I see no one ever answered my query for a mnemonic to sort the four symbols out, so while browsing a book on Medieval manuscripts today I took myself in hand.

This worked for me (I thought I'd never keep them straight--had quite a mental block about it):

1) Matthew : Man -- (also referred to as a human or angel.) The two first letters "ma" are the same in both, not such a stretch to connect them.

2) John : Eagle -- I have a picture of holy card that depicts John in the desert with an attendant eagle that I used in a study of his card in the Tarot of the Saints. Easy to remember that because of the visual. Also eagles in the sky and general things in the sky remind me of Revelations, another book attributed to John.

3) Mark : Lion -- The "r" sound in the name Mark reminds me of the Rrrrroar of a lion. Easy to connect those.

4) Luke : Ox -- I had a bit of trouble scrounging around for something to cement these two together until I remembered the colour called "oxblood," and then from there connected blood to doctors, and as Luke was supposedly a physician too, that gave me a memorable connection.

As far as the order of them goes, I've seen them all a-jumble not only in tarot cards but in illuminated manuscripts, perhaps the order comes from the artistic sensibility of balance in composition? For me that is the answer. Sometimes the simplest answer is the best one.

Very often in both writing and art people will interpret a meaning that was never there for the original artist or writer. We love to dream up convoluted associations (like oxblood for instance.) 8-|

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