Re: The World

#101
Image

Sforza Castle World Card

Looking at this card, yet again, I'm struck by how some of the picture seems to be cut off around the edges. It seems very odd to me that the artist would have intended this, why wouldn't they put the full faces of the animals?

When I first saw this card, I assumed it was an Italian style card that had the edges folded over it covering part of the front, and that the number had been added on top of where the fold was. Ross confirmed that that was not the case, that the card wasn't wrapped, but had been printed this way.

I have to wonder though, why does it look like part of the image has been cut off? In the Vieville and Noblet, the full bodies of the animals are there, it's hard to imagine that whoever created this card would purposely cut off parts of the image in this way. Very odd.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: The World

#102
robert wrote: I have to wonder though, why does it look like part of the image has been cut off? In the Vieville and Noblet, the full bodies of the animals are there, it's hard to imagine that whoever created this card would purposely cut off parts of the image in this way. Very odd.
Perhaps the design was copied 1:1 from a larger format to a smaller ... perhaps the printer had access only to smaller paper or other technical reasons.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The World

#103
I just noticed the circle on the right hand side of the figure, and I'm wondering if it is an imperial orb on top of a staff?

That seems to be implied in the Noblet, but now I think I see it in this card as well. Yes? No?


Noblet World Card:

Image
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: The World

#104
Well, what is the back?

eta: sorry, life intervened. Continued.

Kaplan, V. II, p. 293, describes this card along with five others of "group 4." For three of those cards, he describes & shows the backs. And says,
Three cards lack back designs and front borders, since the sheet of paper glued to the back has fallen off.
The World is one of those. The backing & border paper fell off.


robert wrote:
Image

Sforza Castle World Card

Looking at this card, yet again, I'm struck by how some of the picture seems to be cut off around the edges. It seems very odd to me that the artist would have intended this, why wouldn't they put the full faces of the animals?

When I first saw this card, I assumed it was an Italian style card that had the edges folded over it covering part of the front, and that the number had been added on top of where the fold was. Ross confirmed that that was not the case, that the card wasn't wrapped, but had been printed this way.

I have to wonder though, why does it look like part of the image has been cut off? In the Vieville and Noblet, the full bodies of the animals are there, it's hard to imagine that whoever created this card would purposely cut off parts of the image in this way. Very odd.

Re: The World

#105
Well that's even odder. Wouldn't that imply that when the border had been folded over from the back, it would have covered up the area with the number? I thought originally that the number might have been added later, but Ross said that when he saw the card, it seemed that the the number was printed, not added by hand later. So they printed the card, then covered up the number?

Nevertheless, it seems that the card was printed with the border around the image that chops off part of the image. Huck's suggestions make a lot of sense, that originally the image was larger and then it was cropped for this printing.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: The World

#106
I think that the back was probably cut so that when folded over the number would still show - an indentation in the top fold.

Whatever the back design was, was already lost when Novati found the cards. It has not been preserved.

Many of the cards were found with their backs, which are shown with them in Kaplan II. For a long time, most of the last century, the cards with their backs detached were pressed between plates of glass. At some point in the last decade, or perhaps in the late 1990s, the cards were removed from the glass plates and the backs glued back on, with neutral filling paper between to stiffen it. Cards without backs, like the World, were fixed to this stiff paper alone. The colour of this paper can be seen though the hole in the middle of World.

I think your observations about the cut of the animals, Robert, leads to the conclusion that the maker of these cards was already wrestling with the problems of space that you notice in the Tarot de Marseille family as it evolves.
Image

Re: The World

#107
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:I think that the back was probably cut so that when folded over the number would still show - an indentation in the top fold..
Hmmmm... It seems like a lot of effort. They'd either have to have pre-cut a special back just for the World card and added it on to each, or they'd have to manually remove it on the World card from every deck. It's hard for me to imagine.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: The World

#108
If that has been printed without the backing folded over the front to make a border
As Huck says it looks like the design has been forshortened to fit a specific card size/paper size- Then it seems to me that maybe the title has been removed as well. Card set 4 is 68-69 millimeters wide.
Then Looking at the Cary Yale sheet (sorry to comment in another thread) there is little or no room to wrap backing on those images- the margins are really small- especially between Temperance and seven Batons- no room for cutting really. So other sheets have bigger margins between cards- The cary Yale sheet images must be wider as well. (as the World card originally, I mean.)
~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: The World

#109
It seems that it was originally printed with the back which would have folded over, but it has come off. So this still needs to be addressed.

To my eye, if the original had been about the same size, but without the border area, then it would seem alright, on all four sides, for the image alone. An additional "index" area would have to be added to the top and bottom to make it a traditional Tarot de Marseille style card with image and index at top and bottom.

To me, the most likely scenerio is that the original image was about the same size as this card, but included the area which now has been omitted for wrapping of the backing. I don't think the original would have had a title or a number. But you're right, I can imagine that the top and bottom with title and number were cut off.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: The World

#110
Lorredan wrote:Then Looking at the Cary Yale sheet (sorry to comment in another thread) there is little or no room to wrap backing on those images- the margins are really small- especially between Temperance and seven Batons- no room for cutting really. So other sheets have bigger margins between cards- The cary Yale sheet images must be wider as well. (as the World card originally, I mean.)
~Lorredan
It is quite likely that the Cary-Sheet wasn't wrapped, I wonder about other early cards, were they all wrapped?

I believe that batons at the bottom of the Cary Sheet were added from another sheet, the borders don't match, it looks like it was glued to the rest of the sheet.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

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