Re: The Sun

#51
Hi, Marco,
Marco wrote:Thanks to a post on ATF, I found this great 1491 astrological manuscript, in which many illustrations feature the brick wall background that appears in a few Sun cards.
Thanks -- really nice manuscript.

As has been noted many times, any book with a great many subjects (like Dante's Divine Comedy) will have numerous subjects in common with the trumps. Likewise, any large collection of images will have some in common. This is why picture books and books with many descriptive passages served as model books or pattern books for later artists. About half the trump subjects seem to be readily identifiable in such an astrological text.

Seznec's Survival of the Pagan Gods traces the way in which books like Petrarch's Africa could be a conduit for transmission of pictorial information. These astrological books, with many simplified images, would be a great source of stock figures. Ross' Victor Belli find from a few years ago is a wonderful example of how a particular design might be copied. For those who know the source and its associations, the image carries allusions of significance.

As you point out, another notable iconographic observation to be made from browsing those images is that the wall motif is apparently a common background. In the pervasively-occultist environment of a Tarot discussion, every feature must be hyper-interpreted, so it is difficult to let go of something. However, things like ground, sky, and a wall, may not be secret codes but merely conventional backdrops.
Marco wrote:“In these tarot cards, various hieroglyphs and heavenly signs are represented. Each of them has its number, from 1 to 35, and the last five, until 40, are not numbered, but their ordering is understood from the figures printed on them. The order is: the Star, the Moon, the Sun, the World and the Trumpets, which is the highest and would be number 40. The allegory is that, as the Stars are won by the light of the Moon, and the light of the Moon by that of the Sun, in the same way the World is greater than the Sun, and Fame, represented by the Trumpets, is more valuable than the World; so much so that a man, after having exited the World, continues to live in it thanks to his Fame, when he has accomplished some glorious deed.

Similarly, Petrarch in 'The Triumphs' does something like a game; because Love is won by Chastity, Chastity by Death, Death by fame, and Fame by Divinity, which reigns forever.”
Fantastic -- great quote.

Thanks very much.

Best regards,
Michael
We are either dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants, or we are just dwarfs.

Re: The Sun

#52
Hi Marco,
marco wrote: About the “hierarchy of light”, the 1688  edition of “Il Malmantile Racquistato” by Lorenzo Lippi contains some long footnotes by Paolo Minucci related to Minchiate cards. They have been published in Italian by Andrea Vitali and Girolamo Zorli. Mike Howard has translated into English part of the page.

If I see correctly, this passage has not been translated yet:
In queste carte di Tarocchi sono effigiati diversi geroglifici, e segni celesti: e ciascuna ha il suo numero, da uno fino a 35 e l' ultime cinque fino a 40 non hanno numero, ma si distingue dalla figura impressavi la loro maggioranza, che è in quest'ordine Stella, Luna, Sole,Mondo, e Trombe, che è la maggiore, e sarebbe il numero 40. L’allegoria è, che siccome le stelle son vinte di luce dalla Luna, e la Luna dal Sole, così il Mondo è maggiore del Sole, e la Fama, figurata colle Trombe, vale più che il Mondo; talmente che anche quando l'uomo n'è uscito, vive in esso per fama, quando ha fatte azioni gloriose. 

Il Petrarca similmente ne' Trionfi fa come un giuoco; perchè Amore è superato dalla Castità, la Castità dalla Morte, la Morte dalla Fama, e la Fama dalla Divinità, la quale eternamente regna.
“In these tarot cards, various hieroglyphs and heavenly signs are represented. Each of them has its number, from 1 to 35, and the last five, until 40, are not numbered, but their ordering is understood from the figures printed on them. The order is: the Star, the Moon, the Sun, the World and the Trumpets, which is the highest and would be number 40. The allegory is that, as the Stars are won by the light of the Moon, and the light of the Moon by that of the Sun, in the same way the World is greater than the Sun, and Fame, represented by the Trumpets, is more valuable than the World; so much so that a man, after having exited the World, continues to live in it thanks to his Fame, when he has accomplished some glorious deed.

Similarly, Petrarch in 'The Triumphs' does something like a game; because Love is won by Chastity, Chastity by Death, Death by Fame, and Fame by Divinity, which reigns forever.”
I also posted this in the "Cards as 'Hieroglyphs'" thread on Aeclectic Tarot, back in March of 2008.
http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php? ... ostcount=1

I didn't remember to think of his example of a "hierarchy of light" explanation for the unnumbered arie of the Minchiate pack, though.

My text and translation:
1676, Florence. The latest, before de Gébelin, is from Paolo Minucci, in his commentary on the poem "Del Malmantile racquistato" by Perlone Zipoli (anagrammatic pseud. of Lorenzo Lippi) (Chapter VIII, stanza 61), explaining the mention of "minchiate" -

"The 40 are called Germini o Tarocchi: and this word Tarocchi, says Monosino, comes from the Greek hetaros: with which word, he says with Alciato, it Denotes those companions, who come together to play for nourishment. But I do not know this word, what it would be; I know well that hetairos and hetaroi means Sodales: and from this word, coming down into Latin, could be made the diminutive Hetaroculi, that is to say Little Companions. Germini comes from Gemini, a celestial sign, which has the highest number among the Tarocchi. In these Tarocchi cards are depicted different hieroglyphs and celestial signs, and each has his number, from one to 35; and the last five ending at 40 have no number, but are distinguished by the figures impressing their order of precedence, which is in this order Star, Moon, Sun, World, and Trumpet, which is the highest, and would have the number 40. The allegory is, that just as the Stars are outshone by the Moon, and the Moon by the Sun, so the World is bigger than the Sun and Fame, shown with the Trumpet, is worth more than the World: so much that when a man is gone, he continues to live through fame, when he has performed glorious acts. Likewise Petrarch made Trionfi like a game; since Love is superceded by Chastity, Chastity by Death, Death by Fame, and Fame by Divinity, which reigns eternally."

(Le 40 si dicono Germini o Tarocchi; e questa voce Tarocchi, vuole il Monosino, che venga dal Greco etaros: colla qual voce, dice egli coll'Alciato, Denotantur sodales illi, qui cibi causa ad lusum conveniunt. Ma quella voce no so, che sia; so bene, che etaipos e etaroi vuol dire Sodales: e da questa voce diminuita all'usanza Latina si puo esser fatto Hetaroculi, cioe Compagnoni. Germini forse da Gemini, segno celeste, che fra Tarocchi col numero e il maggiore. In queste carte di Tarocchi sono effigiati diversi geroglifici e segni celesti: e ciascuna ha il suo numero, da uno fino a 35 e l'ultime cinque fino a 40 non anno numero, ma si distingue dalla figura impressavi la loro maggioranza, che è in quest' ordine Stella, Luna, Sole, Mondo, e Trombe, che è la maggiore, e sarebbe il numero 40. L'allegoria è, che siccome le stelle son vinte di luce dalla Luna, e la Luna dal Sole, cosi il Mondo è maggiore del Sole, e la Fama, figurata colle Trombe, vale più che il Mondo; talmente che anche quando l'uomo n' è uscito, vive is esso per fama, quando ha fatte azioni gloriose. Il Petrarca similmente ne' Trionfi fa come un giuoco; perchè Amore è superato dalla Castità, la Castità dalla Morte, la Morte dalla Fama, e la Fama dalla Divinità, la quale eternamente regna.)
It is nice, rich little text, including two etymologies, older commentators, an explanation of the sense of part of the sequence, and an allusion to Petrarch. Quite a bundle!
Image

Re: The Sun

#53
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote: I also posted this in the "Cards as 'Hieroglyphs'" thread on Aeclectic Tarot, back in March of 2008.
http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php? ... ostcount=1

I didn't remember to think of his example of a "hierarchy of light" explanation for the unnumbered arie of the Minchiate pack, though.

...

It is nice, rich little text, including two etymologies, older commentators, an explanation of the sense of part of the sequence, and an allusion to Petrarch. Quite a bundle!
Hello Ross,
I am sorry, I did not remember your translation, nor actually the content of this passage, which, as you note, is reach of information.
I have now seen that your translation also was here on THF. This time, I forgot to search around before posting.

Re: The Sun

#55
Marco,
Interesting non-tarot image, but clearly a child (the soul of "everyman") at play in the arena of the planets - so not sure how it can tie in to just the sun. My first thought is that the infant is equipped with the banner of St. George (and his horse, but as a toy) and the cross to fend off the mailgnant influences of the planets - and note the addition of an 8th figure, a cross-topped Angel praying from the Good Book alongside the planets, as the latter look away from the child. St. George, however, usually does not hold a banner, but rather wears a covering with that same design:
Image


The polar opposite of that idea is the 7 feathered PMB Fool - mindlessly subject to the influences of the 7 planets:
PMB Fool  - head detail.jpg
PMB Fool - head detail.jpg (17.54 KiB) Viewed 2724 times
Some related text and imagery:
“Bonatti’s Liber astronomics illustrates the celestial influences on a new-born child in the form of of a star directing its rays upon the infant’s head (figure 22 [see below])." Sophie Page, Astrology in Medieval Manuscripts, (2002: 31)
Image


The idea goes back to classical antiquity of course (Domitian coin showing the apotheosis of his dead son via seven stars or planets, below)
Image

Postdating the era that concerns me most (quatrrocento), but alchemical treatises really teased this imgagery out, and may allow one to perhaps even connect St. George’s dragon to the planets:
Image

This last image seems to connect death/rebirth to the planets - completely void of Xtian imagery except for the cupids aiming at the mouth perhaps with biblical/magical spoken words (logos?):
Image


Phaeded

Re: The Sun

#56
I agree with Phaedad that the child holding the banner of Christ's resurrection on a cross, and the angel with a cross reading scriptures, probably is meant to show that the Grace of God is stronger than any influence of the planets, and any who have faith in scripture and the resurrection of the Lord is free from the reign of planetary influences. After another manner the banner and angel (messenger) with scripture could also be read as the Triumph of Eternity (and of eternal life through the Lord) over Time. The child at play, with the Cross of Christ banner, also brings to mind ""Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

Christ with Cross Banner:


Image


Image


After the Harrowing of Hell, Christ with Cross Banner appears to Mary:
Image
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The Sun

#57
SteveM wrote:After another manner the banner and angel (messenger) with scripture could also be read as the Triumph of Eternity (and of eternal life through the Lord) over Time. The child at play, with the Cross of Christ banner, also brings to mind ""Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."
Steve,
Those Christ-with-banner images you posted above are much closer to the child on the toy horse than the St. George idea I floated - the toy horse is just such an odd detail (of course Revelations is littered with horses so perhaps not so odd, especially if the infant here is a stand-in for the Christian soul? At all events imitatio christi is at work here....perhaps even an allusion to Rev. 19:11-16) . I also like your Eternity over (planetary) time reference.

I thought I scoured Warburg's images - again, nice find. I'm going to use it for a different argument elsewhere, so thanks!

Phaeded

Re: The Sun

#58
Christ as child has also been portrayed as riding on a hobby horse--his identity as such is usually though at least accompanied by a halo--perhaps the banner of resurrection might indicate such too? If Christ in the circle of time as child then the Lord's incarnation, the flag resurrection??? I'd love to see the text (with interpretation) that goes with it (in the hope of course, that it is explained in the text).
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The Sun

#59
SteveM wrote:Christ as child has also been portrayed as riding on a hobby horse--his identity as such is usually though at least accompanied by a halo--perhaps the banner of resurrection might indicate such too? If Christ in the circle of time as child then the Lord's incarnation, the flag resurrection??? I'd love to see the text (with interpretation) that goes with it (in the hope of course, that it is explained in the text).
Hello Steve, I agree that it is a peculiar image and I also hope that the text could tell us more. Unluckily, I have not been able to find the manuscript online.

Re: The Sun

#60
marco wrote: Hello Steve, I agree that it is a peculiar image and I also hope that the text could tell us more. Unluckily, I have not been able to find the manuscript online.
hi Marco,

I remember to have seen this picture or rather similar pictures in style in a German presentation of digitalized older manuscripts, just a few weeks ago. It was a book about astrology (or astronomy). I don't remember the specific library. Maybe Wolfenbüttel, maybe Heidelberg, maybe another. I remember a list with a big list of mainly German astrological books, where I picked it up.

The boy with the horse should be earth, I would think, watched by the 7 planets and an angel. Or the person, who gets an horoscope.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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