Re: The Star

#61
Catholic wrote: First you need to ignore Robert arguments...
x_x




... actually, I find the Thomas and Christ idea interesting. (Pssst.. you should check out the Vieville World card).
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: The Star

#62
SteveM wrote:
Huck wrote: Is "L'Etoile" less common than "Les Etoiles"?

The sample here would suggest so, 4 out of 12 have l'etoile.
Not quite, on the contrary, I think Huck was asking about the difference between the singular and plural forms, on the page linked here, only one (Jacques Rochias 1782) out of 12 is a plural form, Estoile or LESTOILE or whatever variations are singular forms of the same word.

Bertrand

Re: The Star

#63
Come on, Robert. I don't mean ill. I just did not digest all you taught me to reply to you yet. Please give me some latitude.

When I came back to this discussion, I will try to show that one of the strongest reasons I have to give Noblet the closer to the source status is that is is just so easier to see distorted Catholic images on it. But this is not an argument that I am prepared to do now. And not on this thread. I need to find a thread on the "The Exhibition Gallery" that deals exclusive with the Tarot de Marseille Iconography. And I need time.

The whole "two births" plus "Aquarius" thing is so much more important to me right now. And Noblet is the key. For example: the other decks have a more feminine Star than Noblet, making it easier to argue that his is closer to Aquarius.

:ympeace:
What the heck was on the Tarot de Marseille original creator mind ?

Re: The Star

#64
Just to clarify, I'm in agreement that the Noblet is one of the decks probably "closer to the source", and have been arguing as much for many years now. Have you read the threads on the Tarot de Marseille I and the Tarot de Marseille II which discuss differences between what might be considered the Noblet/Vieville/Dodal/Payen type cards versus the Chosson/Conver/Madenié type cards? For me, most of the evidence points to Tarot de Marseille I being the older pattern, but I don't think it is conclusive yet, and I still struggle to place the "birth" of the Tarot de Marseille II. Anyway, this is better discussed in another thread. Cheers!
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: The Star

#65
Bertrand wrote:
SteveM wrote:
Huck wrote: Is "L'Etoile" less common than "Les Etoiles"?

The sample here would suggest so, 4 out of 12 have l'etoile.
Not quite, on the contrary, I think Huck was asking about the difference between the singular and plural forms, on the page linked here, only one (Jacques Rochias 1782) out of 12 is a plural form, Estoile or LESTOILE or whatever variations are singular forms of the same word.

Bertrand
Thanks for clarifying that Bertrand - memory told me it was usually singular rather than plural.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The Star

#66
In christianized zodiacs John the Baptist has been ascribed variably to Cancer and to Aquarius. John's baptism of Christ usually also represent the holy spirit descending as a dove.

In the following representation, from 15th century florence, we may also note the figures on the left with crowns of flowers and leaves in relation to the Tarot de Marseille lovers:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=389#p6051

Image


We may also note that the 'Morning Star' as precursor of the Sun, was also an epiteth of John the Baptist, precursor of Jesus Christ the Sun of Righteousness, e.g.,

quote:
“These things did John preach to the people; going into several parts, but principally keeping to the river Jordan for the Conveniency of Water; where he dayly made great numbers of proselytes, several of whom were foreigners, as we may collect from St. Luke, Act. 19.3. These were the first dawnings of the Gospel, and John was truly the Morning Star to Jesus the Sun of Righteousness.”
End quote from:
A general ecclesiastical history from the nativity of our blessed Saviour to the first establishment of Christianity by humane laws ...: to which is added, a large chronological table of all the Roman and ecclesiastical affairs ...
printed for Jacob Tonson, 1702

(As Morning Star the planet Venus was renamed after John the Baptist among some Christian campaigners for re-naming the Stars and Planets.)

John the Baptist, the Morning Star, announced Jesus as the Sun of God; St. Paul travels to the Rome, the City of the twins Romulus and Remus, on a ship named after the twins Castor and Pollus, to spread the 'good news' of the Sun of Righteousness, the Son of God.

... but the figure of the nude lady remains at odds. . .

(According to another scheme from medieval legends, Mary wet nursed John, and he and his cousin Jesus were like brothers - twins - and John represents cancer, the summer solstice, and Jesus the winter solstice.)
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Thomas Didymus, gemina significat...

#67
Catholic wrote: Let me show a example of what I do.

First you need to ignore Robert arguments and play with me that Noblet is closer to the source. The fist image is Noblet' Sun. It shows a dressed man with a funny expression on the face touching the other figure torso. I normally would see the other figure as a female, because my breath rule. But take in mind that within this new kind of analysis I already have the hypothesis that the picture is distorted. This second figure has his right arm raised and only uses a piece of fabric covering partially his body. He also has a funny expression, but somehow clearer. It seems to me kind and supportive.

The second picture is the Incredulity of Thomas, painted by Ludovico Mazzolino circa 1522. It shows St. Thomas fully dressed touching the wound on our Lord torso after the Resurrection. This happens on the SUNday of Easter.

Image

Image

Very nice - you forgot to mention a most relevant aspect that not everyone one may be aware of - that it is doubting Thomas the twin. That his full name is Thomas Didymus, and his surname Didymus is the Greek translation of the hebrew first name Thomas - both (hebrew and greek) words for 'twin'. . . Thomas Didymus, gemina significat... (Didymus - the twin - is also an epiteth of the Sun god Apollo of course, I don't live far away from the temple of Apollo Didymus, I must go and see it next time I visiting my friends at Didim).
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The Star

#69
R.A. Hendley wrote:
With the Star representing Advent (in some decks anyway), and the Sun as a 'perfect' symbol of the Resurrection, I'm surprised some pious card-maker never equated Christ's crucifixion with the Moon card, as he was killed during the Passover, which would be during a full Moon.

Birth - Death - Resurrection. :ympray:
It has been suggested that it's not only a full moon, but an eclipse! As in, the world going dark at Christ's death.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: The Star

#70
I'm pretty sure they would have known better than to interpret the Sun's going dark at the crucifixion as an eclipse. A solar eclipse occurs precisely at New Moon, not Full Moon, its exact opposite.

Also, since Jesus was crucified during the day, and Passover occurs on the Full Moon (14-15 Nisan; Jewish months begin at the New Moon), the Moon would not have been visible. The Full Moon rises at Sunset.

These facts would have been well-known to the Evangelists, as much as anybody down through the ages who knows anything about the calendar and basic astronomy. The celestial signs are just stock apocalyptic imagery.

Also, during a Lunar eclipse, the Moon never goes completely dark, but turns deep red.
Image

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