Re: The Star

#51
Marco wrote:
Do these two images look similar to you? The one on the left is Aquarius from one of those almanacs, posted by Pen at the beginning of this thread.
Could you please post some XV century example of the iconography of Alcyone and the Plaiades?

And, why the Pleiades on the Star, of all constellations?
Yes they do. I have little doubt that the iconography of the Tarot de Marseille passed trough Aquarius. Let me continue to ignore the Sforza Castle(for reasons, I hope, I will soon explain). The Cary Sheet is the closest deck of Tarot de Marseille and it probably shows Aquarius. But Aquarius is a boy. On Tarot de Marseille we have a girl. How O'Neill accounts for a female Aquarius on Tarot de Marseille?

The most simple explanation for me is that someone, seeing a effeminated Aquarius picture created our naked girl by mistake.

If the above is correct, we have two options:

1)The girl is only a mistake and means nothing. It does not means Aquarius anymore, and it does not means anything else new. Life is tough and the world not always make sense.

2)We could guess that it was not only a copy mistake, but a mistake on the understanding of the picture. So the girl meant something for the artist. But what?

The only image that fits is a Water Nymph. And Huck was kind enough to provide an example for me. I've found some dressed nymphs pouring water (like the Nymphes of la Fontaine des Innocents - 1547) and some naked nymphs (like the Nymph of Fontainebleau ca. 1545–54). But Huck provided the only naked pouring water nymph I could find so far.

It looks like a Water Nymph: a naked-pouring water-female. And I could find nothing else that could fit. We may stop here.

But I have a tendency to create stories. Why the Pleiades on the Star, of all constellations? Because if the artist did not just copied wrong but understood wrongly I may try to answer "how?". Why a water nymph on a Star card? So I started looking for water nymphs on the Sky. Ideally one with some form of 7+1 stars schema that the card shows.

I've found two candidates. Both on Taurus. The Hyades and the Pleiades. As is common on the Greek Mythology, their tales mixed up. They are both seven sisters of Atlas with a Water Nymphs. But the Pleiades are better known, they are closer to Atlas on the sky and there is the delicious possibility of the mixing Alcyones ( that would give a explanation for the bird). It is just a story. It fits, but you are free to just dismiss it without need for argumentation. I know now that I don't have much to back me up. The best explanation is number (1) the girl is just a mistake and means nothing.

On the other hand. Aquarius is a boy. The Sun astrologically governs Leo, Gemini is governed by Mercury. So of the associations: Star-Aquarius; Moon-Cancer; Sun-Gemini; only the middle one makes any astrological sense. And the Sun figures does not seem like twins on Noblet. They do only on later decks. Actually, on the damned Sforza Castle Sun Card, they look like a boy and a girl (since my teens, when I see breaths I think of girls).

Happy St. Casilda day ( as Easter is over am out of good endings for my posts)
What the heck was on the Tarot de Marseille original creator mind ?

Re: The Star

#52
~o)
Catholic wrote:
The Sun astrologically governs Leo, Gemini is governed by Mercury. So of the associations: Star-Aquarius; Moon-Cancer; Sun-Gemini; only the middle one makes any astrological sense. And the Sun figures does not seem like twins on Noblet. They do only on later decks. Actually, on the damned Sforza Castle Sun Card, they look like a boy and a girl (since my teens, when I see breaths I think of girls).
Well, it's not a standard planetary rulership scheme - Maybe the engraver, designer, patron has Venus in Aquarius, Moon in Cancer and the Sun in Gemini !?

(ps: though usually boys, some representations of Gemini do show them as boy and girl.)

May be there are some obscure religious connotations (e.g., some sources state that Christ (often symbolised by the Sun as the light of the world) was crucified in the 19th year (card XIX) of the reign of (some say tiberius, others say Herod) during the consulate of the Roman Gemini). The star card advents two births, that of Christ, and of those re-born in Christ through Baptism - of which Aquarius is a symbol).

We may also note that empresses/queens were often portrayed with iconography of Venus or the Virgin Mary (of which the star card may be a conflation), and the holy Roman Emperor and Holy Father were considered the lights of the world, the Emperor's Light was that of the Moon, the Pope's that of the Sun - if we line up the numbered 21 cards in 3 rows of 7, the empress is under the star, the emperor the moon, and the pope the sun.

Though the stained glass windows at the church described here are modern many of the concepts are not, and is typical how various iconographic elements may be brought together :

"Following is another series of symbols containing “Morning Star” (a star), “Queen of the Most Holy Rosary” (a wreath of fifteen roses in three different colors) and “Queen of All Saints” (a vase from which flows water surmounted by a crown and with two birds). In the last symbol, the birds represent Christian souls drinking at the fountain of salvation and the crown depicts the queenship of Mary."

http://immaculateconception-parish.org/ ... Cinfo.html

In reference to Huck's allusion to jugs as breasts, Mary may be found depicted being suckled, as Queen of all Saints, by those who have found their salvation in Christ:

For you will nurse and be satisfied at her comforting breasts; you will drink deeply and delight in her overflowing abundance.

Among the windows too, as is typical of Marian devotion, is one depicting the tree of life, that is of the geneological tree of Christ - which in relation to tarot we may note, run through 77 generations from old Adam to new Adam (78 from G-d) ; the generations are divided at abraham (one gospels geneology commence with Abraham, another with Adam) - this is explained theologically as that of Abraham relating to his jewish descent as Christ as fullfillment of God's covenant to Abraham and his descendants the Israelites, and that from Adam as representing salvation in Christ salvation for all mankind (including Gentiles). Abrahams place in the tree divides it into two sections, of 56 generations and 21/22. Also it is possible the word tarocch (meaing loggerhead, blockhead dunce, fool) is derived figuratively from a word meaning 'trunk', tree, tree of life, a genealogical tree.

In reference to Venus, in Christian typology she was made a symbol of the new testament/covenant - Saturn is castrated and his testicles thrown into the sea, and Venus is born from the sea 'foam' - Christians interpreted this as representing the replacement of the covenant of law (saturn, the old testament) with a new covenant of love (venus) through the birth of Christ (also called the 'morning star').
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The Star

#53
We've 3 holy magi as a type of the Star (with Moon and Star) representation ... well, according new research we know now with a little more security, that tarot mass production might have started 1463/64 and that likely Florence had been involved and that in c. 1463/64 the Medici in Florence finished their chapel for the 3 Magi. Possibly this caused, that an earlier 7 virtues model inside Trionfi card models was replaced by 3 cardinal virtues plus hidden Prudentia and the cards sun-moon-star.

*****************
We've a single king with star going to the same interpretation
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We've Star as exchange for the cardinal virtue Hope,
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We've a single woman Star, probably "Morning Star" and Planet Venus
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... and we've the Astronomers
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... and Aquarius
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... And possibly we have a "political card motive" in Bologna, when Emperor Maximilian attempted to become pope in 1512.

as discussed here long ago ..
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=334&hilit=1512&start=87

and we've possibly the Milky Way (Hera with Hercules or Rhea with Jupiter myths)
Alcyone and Ceyx myths are near to Hera and Zeus.
The Milky way would be a natural object, if the card "Star" would have been interpreted in plural as "Stars"

In the later Minchiat Francesi (also France) we've also a little bit "milky way",
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in the Etteilla (France) we have 7 Planets
Image

as we have them also in the Petit Oracles des Dames (France)
Image


The Vievil has the single astronomer, the Tarot de Paris has the single astronomer. One BIG STAR and some smaller in the Vievil and ONLY ONE BIG STAR in the Taro de Paris

Image


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The Vandenborre has the single astronomer - one BIG STAR sand some smaller

Image


That's the "Northern line of development", I'd assume. For the Southern line I would assume, that Swiss, possibly also Piedmont decks went to France - and formed the Marseille Tarot style there.
Early Italian style decks prefer 1-star-pictures, French pictures seem to see "more than 1 star". Perhaps this has something to do with language? Is "L'Etoile" less common than "Les Etoiles"?
The only single French star appears just in the Tarot de Paris, and from this it seems, that it was mainly influenced in 1559 by two Italians - Louis Gonzaga and Pilippe Strozzi.

The Cary Yale sheet and the Leber Tarocchi a little bit show also other cards. But generally there seems to be an Italian preference for "single stars"
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Star

#54
Huck wrote: Is "L'Etoile" less common than "Les Etoiles"?

The sample here would suggest so, 4 out of 12 have l'etoile.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The Star

#55
SteveM wrote:
Huck wrote: Is "L'Etoile" less common than "Les Etoiles"?

The sample here would suggest so, 4 out of 12 have l'etoile.
German address moon as "male" (der Mond) and sun as "female" (die Sonne), other European languages seem to have it vice versa ... perhaps Italians tend to address "Star" in singular form and French in plural, perhaps on the base of not recognized religious or mythological reasons.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Star

#56
Huck wrote:
SteveM wrote:
Huck wrote: Is "L'Etoile" less common than "Les Etoiles"?

The sample here would suggest so, 4 out of 12 have l'etoile.
German address moon as "male" (der Mond) and sun as "female" (die Sonne), other European languages seem to have it vice versa ... perhaps Italians tend to address "Star" in singular form and French in plural, perhaps on the base of not recognized religious or mythological reasons.
I was thinking just in terms of the context of the card name - in every day language I don't know, there is no special preference that I am aware of - a google search on:

les étoiles gives - 9,680,000 hits
l'étoile gives - 7,740,000 hits

From which nothing significant can be drawn, especially without specific context.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The Star

#57
SteveM wrote:
Maybe the engraver, designer, patron has Venus in Aquarius, Moon in Cancer and the Sun in Gemini !?

I was thinking Ascendent in Aquarius (being the 'line' where morning begins), Moon in Cancer and Sun in Gemini. :)


:ymdaydream: Easter thought -

With the Star representing Advent (in some decks anyway), and the Sun as a 'perfect' symbol of the Resurrection, I'm surprised some pious card-maker never equated Christ's crucifixion with the Moon card, as he was killed during the Passover, which would be during a full Moon.

Birth - Death - Resurrection. :ympray:
When a clock is hungry, it goes back four seconds.

Re: The Star

#58
R.A. Hendley wrote: Birth - Death - Resurrection. :ympray:
Yes, I think the idea of the moon eclipsing the sun has been construed in terms of crucifixion (the sky went dark) and in terms of entombment (the sun, light of the world is obscured until it passed over, roll away the stone!).

In terms of entombment the cancer fits in terms of it being the gateway to the lower world (Christ's descent into hell prior to resurrection).

In reference to the twins we may also note Paul carries the 'good news' (of the light of the world, symbolised by the sun) to Rome (founded by the twins Romulus and Remus) on a ship named after the twins (Castor & Pollux). The twins are a symbol of Rome, seat of the Bishop (the Pope) in the rank below (in a 3x7 structure) who has a pair of acolytes (the twins / city converted by the triumph of Christianity over paganism).

Thus the seven final cards represent a triumph of the light of the world (that is, of love), from the torch of satan (the flames of earthly desire, eros) to the seven-fold light of the world to come . The three celestial lights as time also represent history through which providence directs St. Augustine's 'arrow of judgment' towards salvation - judgement beginning at the house of god (purgation from paradise, exile from eden, the birth of time, of death) to the final judgement and resurrection (the death of death), a tribute of God's love (caritas).
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The Star

#59
At one time I wondered if she was 'La Source' of two rivers, perhaps the Tigris and Euphrates. But perhaps it's better to journey in hope than to arrive... (that's not to say that we have arrived though).
He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy...

Re: The Star

#60
SteveM wrote:
Well, it's not a standard planetary rulership scheme - Maybe the engraver, designer, patron has Venus in Aquarius, Moon in Cancer and the Sun in Gemini !?


Lol. Yes, maybe. But this would be a story that even I would not dare to defend. The more Ad-Hoc hypotheses we need for a theory, the weaker it is. With enough ad-hoc hypothesis any theory fits. Robert made me see that I had more hidden hypotheses than I realize. That's why I've split my answer to you in two parts.

One part is to argue that the known candidates do not fit the Tarot de Marseille iconography as we know it. And that a Water Nymph is the closest pictorial explanation.

The other part is to acknowledge that it is hard to consistently link a Water Nymph with a Star. My old hypothesis is an attempt to provide a reasonable link. But I am less and less interested on it. It already served it's purpose.

My current work hypothesis is that it is a Water Nymph and this was a mistake. It means nothing that make sense.

What, oddly enough, is good news for me. On a lot of other cards I've found distorted Catholic Iconography on Tarot de Marseille. My usual work is to uncover the original iconography and "correct" the Tarot de Marseille. My work with the Star was a complete failure and I was trying a completely different angle. I am happy it failed because it brings me back on track.

Let me show a example of what I do.

First you need to ignore Robert arguments and play with me that Noblet is closer to the source. The fist image is Noblet' Sun. It shows a dressed man with a funny expression on the face touching the other figure torso. I normally would see the other figure as a female, because my breath rule. But take in mind that within this new kind of analysis I already have the hypothesis that the picture is distorted. This second figure has his right arm raised and only uses a piece of fabric covering partially his body. He also has a funny expression, but somehow clearer. It seems to me kind and supportive.

The second picture is the Incredulity of Thomas, painted by Ludovico Mazzolino circa 1522. It shows St. Thomas fully dressed touching the wound on our Lord torso after the Resurrection. This happens on the SUNday of Easter.

Image

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I was just out of clues to make this kind of connection with the Star.

SteveM wrote:
The star card advents two births, that of Christ, and of those re-born in Christ through Baptism - of which Aquarius is a symbol).

I've never heard of this. This would be just perfect! I could not care less for water nymphs at this moment. The problem is that I force myself to find at least one image made around or before the XVI century to back up any link. And I just can't find any "Two births of Jesus". And I've only found one picture connection, on a very weak way, of John the Baptist with Aquarius. One that I can't even date. The traditional Aquarius Constellation picture appear on Jesus foot.

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Can you help me?
What the heck was on the Tarot de Marseille original creator mind ?

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