The Tower

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Re: The Tower

Postby Huck on 06 Mar 2014, 11:19

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:"Folgore d'Italia" seems to be the main expression.


Yes, this looks good.

I think this expression served French propaganda and jokes; it was probably not invented by the Italians concerned.


Yes, that's natural logic. Possibly the French had seen Italian playing cards and the falling tower had inspired them. But - naturally - it might have installed as an expression without observed playing card.

In context with the then new idea "Perdam Babylonis Nomen on a coin" and the associated Babylonian Tower, however, it looks, as if a Tower idea was involved inclusive a connected Jupiter (= Louis XII), who send his fouldre (= nephew Gaston de Foix) to clear the Italian problems to his own favor.
Well, it didn't work, and one can't find one of the coins in the web, only works of later times, which remember it.

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Re: The Tower

Postby Ross G. R. Caldwell on 06 Mar 2014, 14:14

The coin and the nickname don't seem to be directly connected. This book says it was first minted in 1502, and refers to Louis XII's battle with Julius II -

http://books.google.fr/books?id=TqMpqQb ... 22&f=false

"Perdam Babillonis Nomen" (top right of the image, click for larger)


http://www.rosscaldwell.com/images/saet ... llonis.jpg
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Re: The Tower

Postby Huck on 06 Mar 2014, 18:20

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:The coin and the nickname don't seem to be directly connected. This book says it was first minted in 1502, and refers to Louis XII's battle with Julius II -


Thanks, good work.
In 1502 Julius II wasn't pope Julius II, but an useful cardinal, who had helped Louis to get Milan. Possibly there were reasons to fight with Alexander VI, too, though mostly Borgia and France cooperated.

In the already noted text of ...
http://www.cristoraul.com/ENGLISH/histo ... MBRAY.html
... it's rather explicitly related to the period between Brescia and Ravenna and the last stations of Gaston of Foix' life. And then Louis had really trouble with Julius II.

So there's a clear contradiction. Mostly these coin collectors are rather precise in their statements. And I don't get the French very precisely and one page is missing in my books.google.com text version.

... :-) ... now I get a lot of material, likely I had a typo, when looking the first time


big picture at:
https://www.numisbids.com/sales/hosted/ ... e01295.jpg

The king looks young, and the NEAP is rather clear. And the French were engaged in Naples in 1502.

REGNIONEAPR ....

German has "Neapel", but French has "Naples" ?

Regnione APR ?????? ... looks not plausible

Somebody reads a REGNIQNEAPR, Q instead of O, and totally Renique Neap,

Between Brescia and Ravenna lies a march against a Spanish army, and Spain claimed the Naples kingdom, but France felt, that the title belonged to them.

******************

Here's a Latin text of Jacques-Auguste de Thou (1553-1617), historian, book collector and president of the Parlement de Paris ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Auguste_de_Thou

http://books.google.de/books?id=ColDAAA ... is&f=false

... which talks about Perdam Babillonis, 1512 and about Pope Julius.

Somewhere I read, that's he the origin of the story.
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Re: The Tower

Postby marco on 12 Mar 2014, 10:54

Huck wrote:
big picture at:
https://www.numisbids.com/sales/hosted/ ... e01295.jpg

The king looks young, and the NEAP is rather clear. And the French were engaged in Naples in 1502.

REGNIONEAPR ....

German has "Neapel", but French has "Naples" ?

Regnione APR ?????? ... looks not plausible

Somebody reads a REGNIQNEAPR, Q instead of O, and totally Renique Neap,


Hello Huck,
I guess it is Latin: "LVDOvicus FRANciae REGNIQue NEAPolis Rex"

King of France and of the Kingdom of Naples.
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Re: The Tower

Postby Huck on 12 Mar 2014, 18:50

marco wrote:
Hello Huck,
I guess it is Latin: "LVDOvicus FRANciae REGNIQue NEAPolis Rex"

King of France and of the Kingdom of Naples.


Yes, I think so, that it was interpreted this way (and for this reason dated to 1502) ...

The confusion seems to come from this report ...
http://books.google.de/books?id=ColDAAA ... is&f=false
.... which talks of Perdam Babillonis, 1512 and about Pope Julius.
... by Jacques-Auguste de Thou (1553-1617), historian, book collector and president of the Parlement de Paris ...

This is a longer text, and the closer content naturally stays a riddle to me. Why connects he Perdam Babillons to pope Julius, who wasn't pope in 1502?

In 1512 Spain had war with French (in contrast to some years before, when both attacked Venice), and perhaps France revived its claim on Naples?
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Re: The Tower

Postby mmfilesi on 01 Jun 2014, 20:39

Huck wrote:Image

Wenzelsbibel 1390-1400

Image

Masaccio 1424-28, Florence

Image

Minchiate Tower (Minchiate from Florence)

The color of the angel in the Wenzelsbibel and the Masaccio picture is rather similar.


Hi friends, :)

Another: [url="http://bodley30.bodley.ox.ac.uk:8180/luna/servlet/view/all/where/French/when/14th%20century,%20first%20quarter?sort=Shelfmark"]14th C. French. MS. Douce 211[/url]

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A de Marolles engraving of with tower and fiddler

Postby mikeh on 05 Sep 2016, 23:49

On another thread, viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1102, we have been discussing, among other things, Michel de Marolles (1600-1681, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_de_Marolles), who wrote down the earliest extant rules for the game of tarot, published in Nevers in 1637. For one of his works, Tableaux du temple des muses tirez du cabinet de feu Mr Favereau, et gravez en tailles-douces par les meilleurs maistres de son temps pour représenter les vertus et les vices, sur les plus illustres fables de l'antiquité, avec les descriptions, remarques et annotations (1655, per Wikipedia), he seems to have commissioned leading engravers to illustrate the various myths and legends he is recounting. One of them is, according to http://www.allposters.com/-sp/Amphion-B ... 05219_.htm, "Amphion Builds the Walls of Thebes by the Music of His Violin", given indeed to 1655.
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We may confirm that "Amphion" is the title of the corresponding chapter of the book by going to a convenient post of the whole book, at http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/marolles1676, albeit of the 1676 edition. The engraving is at http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit ... 8672f0948d, while the facing page, p. 339, is entitled "Amphion":
http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit ... 78672f0948

Wikpedia says of him (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphion_and_Zethus):
Amphion became a great singer and musician after Hermes taught him to play and gave him a golden lyre. Zethus became a hunter and herdsman, with a great interest in cattle breeding. They built the walls around the Cadmea, the citadel of Thebes. While Zethus struggled to carry his stones, Amphion played his lyre and his stones followed after him and gently glided into place.[2]

De Marolles says something similar in the first sentence of his account.

While I suppose the stones in the engraving could be falling into place, the artist seems to have borrowed from Tower cards, in particular the one by Catelin Geoffroy, 1557 (http://cards.old.no/1557-geofroy/a16.png) and those with flying bricks such as the Charles VI or Rosenwald.

Well, artists are allowed to get their inspiration as they may. The engraving merely suggests an acquaintance with a certain style of tarot. The subject of the Geoffroy is obviously not Amphion, since it is a scene of destruction. It is more likely Nero, who "fiddled while Rome burned", as someone said.

Perhaps other of de Marolles' numerous engravings are reminiscent of tarot cards, I don't know.
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Re: A de Marolles engraving of with tower and fiddler

Postby Huck on 06 Sep 2016, 22:59

mikeh wrote:On another thread, viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1102, we have been discussing, among other things, Michel de Marolles (1600-1681, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_de_Marolles), who wrote down the earliest extant rules for the game of tarot, published in Nevers in 1637. For one of his works, Tableaux du temple des muses tirez du cabinet de feu Mr Favereau, et gravez en tailles-douces par les meilleurs maistres de son temps pour représenter les vertus et les vices, sur les plus illustres fables de l'antiquité, avec les descriptions, remarques et annotations (1655, per Wikipedia), he seems to have commissioned leading engravers to illustrate the various myths and legends he is recounting. One of them is, according to http://www.allposters.com/-sp/Amphion-B ... 05219_.htm, "Amphion Builds the Walls of Thebes by the Music of His Violin", given indeed to 1655.
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I remember, that the "Tableaux du temple des muses" (indeed 1655) was discussed in the topic "Minchiate Francesi" in the context of the life of Poilly (engraver of the Minchiate Francesi), who had had some time in Rome and brought some material from Rome to France, when he returned some short time before 1655.

The Muses text started with "Chaos", the Minchiate Francesi started with "Chaos" and this depended on the work of Ovid, I remember. And the Muses text had 58 pictures, and the Minchiate Francesi had 58 pictures (42 trumps and 16 court cards).

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