Re: Temperance

#31
Good point about temperance with an hourglass.

My speculation here is that the "time-temperance," (I guess with either an hourglass or clock) originates with the reformation and counter-reformation (1520 and later), which marks the passage from public time (a civic calender of festivals and parades, planting and harvest times, court and market times) to private time (everyone making up their own schedules). In England, it was the Puritans, especially Cromwell, who are credited, a century later, for being the killjoys who kill off "Merrie Olde England." But I think you can see the old Roman/medieval public life falling into disrepute in the German and Dutch cities already by the mid-15th century. I am not sure of the timing in in the Northern Italian cities.

In the Tarot, the public calendar doesn't seem to be represented by a single card: the wheel of fortune seems to chaotic and the hermit too fatalistic. It's an interesting line of thought to speculate if the civic calender of the Italian renaissance cities has left a trace in the cards; but I have no idea how to go about it.

Re: Temperance

#32
Jim Schulman wrote:Good point about temperance with an hourglass.

My speculation here is that the "time-temperance," (I guess with either an hourglass or clock) originates with the reformation and counter-reformation (1520 and later), which marks the passage from public time (a civic calender of festivals and parades, planting and harvest times, court and market times) to private time (everyone making up their own schedules). In England, it was the Puritans, especially Cromwell, who are credited, a century later, for being the killjoys who kill off "Merrie Olde England." But I think you can see the old Roman/medieval public life falling into disrepute in the German and Dutch cities already by the mid-15th century. I am not sure of the timing in in the Northern Italian cities.

In the Tarot, the public calendar doesn't seem to be represented by a single card: the wheel of fortune seems to chaotic and the hermit too fatalistic. It's an interesting line of thought to speculate if the civic calender of the Italian renaissance cities has left a trace in the cards; but I have no idea how to go about it.
Well, the earliest Temperance with hour glass is very early in 14th century (1338) ...
Image

... just this picture serves as "earliest evidence" of it. So it hardly could have oiginated with reformation.

Further I saw a speculation, that Christine de Pizan (or her father) around 1400 or some time before brought up the connection between mechanical clock and Temperance. But we naturally don't know, if these ideas could be regarded as "very popular". already then.
Perhaps it's an interesting observation, that Brueghel 1560 used the Temperance clock in Belgium, and that the "Fama Sol" phenomenon in Tarot took place ALSO mainly in Belgium.
Perhaps there's a connection to "busy calvinism" in the symbol, though calvinism was more Dutch. And Brueghel himself seems to be more catholic.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Temperance

#33
In the Tarot, the public calendar doesn't seem to be represented by a single card: the wheel of fortune seems to chaotic and the hermit too fatalistic. It's an interesting line of thought to speculate if the civic calender of the Italian renaissance cities has left a trace in the cards; but I have no idea how to go about it.
You have an interesting way of thinking Jim. Why don't you start a thread asking just that? There are many people who think Tarot is astrological. Italy was governed by the church and the feast days and the times when you could go to war, the dating of Easter, and the times when the Pope made his edicts and when they were read out loud in Church. So here is wrong thread. Interesting though your thoughts are :)
~Lorredan

Hi Huck
I do not get this line of thought- that death is Trumped by Temperance and the fame riddle- or the Elephants for that matter. It all seems very obscure.
~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: Temperance

#34
Lorredan wrote:
Hi Huck
I do not get this line of thought- that death is Trumped by Temperance and the fame riddle- or the Elephants for that matter. It all seems very obscure.
~Lorredan
Well, naturally Tarot is a little bit obscure. The idea, that the sequence follows a sequence with some internal idea, is far spread between researchers, and somehow logical, but nonetheless we have "different orders" in the historical records. So we need not only "one explanation", but some more, as each of the producers has some right to be understood in his intention.
Similar problems we have with specific iconographic groups like "virtues" ... and also we have the field of influences between Tarot groups and "related other groups".

The "Fama riddle" is very complex and problematic ... :-) ... especially problematic is that, what Merlinus Coccai alias Teofilo Folengo made ... :-) ... you were no here, when we discussed this:

Fama riddle
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=747

Merlinus Coccai
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=759&p=10955&hilit=folengo#p10955
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=768&p=11118&hilit=folengo#p11118
search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&keywords=folengo&start=40

... :-) ... a wonderful chaos, all not really finished.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Temperance

#35
The Luca Giordano Temperance picture of c. 1680 ...

Image


... is part of 10 "modelli", which were made for some fresco projects at Palazzo Medici Riccardi in Florence.
http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/paint ... temperance

The 10 modelli include the 3 other cardinal virtues, and the total result is presented by wiki ...

Image


The other six motifs:
1. Eternity: serpent biting its tail, Janus with 3 Fates, Demorgone, Nature, Chronos as Father Time
2. Underworld: Pluto with Propserpina, Cerberus, Charon
3. Agriculture: Juno, Ceres, Triptolemus, Flora, Zephir, Vertumnus
4. Arts and Sciences: Minerva, Mercury, wolf with Romulus and Remus, Artifices, Industry, Amphion for Eloquence.
5. Divine Wisdom: Math, Philosophy, Theology and Wisdom
6. Apotheosis of the Medici: Mars, Venus, chariot of the Moon, Apollo on chariot of the Sun, Saturn, 4 seasons, Aurora

... so somehow a potbourri of virtues, science and Greek gods
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Temperance

#36
Thanks very much Huck for the link to Tarot association an the Vitali essays.
:D it is good to know finally that God created Tarot and drooped it in Harappa and through the Indus Valley Diaspora we get Tarot!
Though I have to agree in Part with Verber Gulinelli about Hells Eye I now realise it is about the Parrots Eye- or the Talking Eye .....Orat (Parrot speech back to front) occhi eye = The Taro-occhi :ymdevil:
As for the sequence where Temperance is at 14 with Sol Fama banner, I have an answer :o)

Sol Fama as shown both forwards and backwards is obviously an anagram.
......Fal Amos which in Latin means False Amos (from the bible) The Hireling Priest Amos who was called a False Priest...and there he goes mixing water and wine (later) and the cardmakers were making a Joke....because 14 is 1+4 = 5 The Pope.
Whatcha think???? :ymsmug:
I am off to drink cactus juice, because I realise why there is a singular quietness on this board/forum- they are not all off watching the olympics........ [-x
Sorry about all the icons.
~Lorredan the Bumble Mouth
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: Temperance

#37
Lorredan wrote:Thanks very much Huck for the link to Tarot association an the Vitali essays.
:D it is good to know finally that God created Tarot and drooped it in Harappa and through the Indus Valley Diaspora we get Tarot!
Though I have to agree in Part with Verber Gulinelli about Hells Eye I now realise it is about the Parrots Eye- or the Talking Eye .....Orat (Parrot speech back to front) occhi eye = The Taro-occhi :ymdevil:
As for the sequence where Temperance is at 14 with Sol Fama banner, I have an answer :o)

Sol Fama as shown both forwards and backwards is obviously an anagram.
......Fal Amos which in Latin means False Amos (from the bible) The Hireling Priest Amos who was called a False Priest...and there he goes mixing water and wine (later) and the cardmakers were making a Joke....because 14 is 1+4 = 5 The Pope.
Whatcha think???? :ymsmug:
I am off to drink cactus juice, because I realise why there is a singular quietness on this board/forum- they are not all off watching the olympics........ [-x
Sorry about all the icons.
~Lorredan the Bumble Mouth
.... :-) .... I don't know, what's in the cactus juice, but I don't understand all.

Where did I give a link to Andrea Vitali's essays? I surely did so occasionally ... but I don't see the context.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Temperance

#38
Huck you gave me the Link to Le Tarot via the paragraph on Andrea Alciati sequence that has Fame at 14...Cross at 12....Justice at 7...etc.
So I read the whole essay starting with Ross who says 'Tarochus' was a word for 'idiot'
right down to Professor Jaques May who said 'Tara' means the Jewish Queen Esther which means 'Star'.
Now fundamentalists Christians believe the Bible was written by God, so it would follow that 'Tarot' was created by God.
It made me drunk...and I do not drink. Cactus Juice is slang for strong alcohol that makes you act like an 'idiot'.
The circle is complete.
So as the Bible is full of 'riddles' that many so called 'experts' explain away with their favourites theories- I gave you a explanation of Card 14 that you showed as Temperance with 'Sol Fama' as a banner on it.
I made a riddle of the riddle.....which happens often with Bible study experts.
You take 'Sol Fama' and it becomes 'Fal Amos' a Priest who was said to be false.
Utter nonsense...it was a joke..hence the icons. I guess it would be like you telling me a joke in German and my school German would not be good enough to see the funny side.
Very few people actually post on History forums these days...either they accept all essays and there is nothing more to say...or they are watching the Olympics or some other spectacle.....or maybe they do not believe the experts., and we are right back in Egypt with the occultists; or Harappa with Shiva-Shiva.
~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: Temperance

#40
The matter with the elephant:

Luca Giordano c. 1680 ...

Image


Temperance with elephant

Andrea Vitali points to Cesare Ripa (1603 ?) ...
Image

.. and translates the explanation with: "(The elephant is placed for Temperance, as being accustomed to a certain quantity of food it never wants more than usual, just taking as much as it is used to in order to feed itself” (page 297, ed. 1613).
Also Andrea Vitali points to one Etteilla Temperance:
Image

http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=126&lng=ENG

This very early Fortitudo with elephants of Matteo de Pasti likely refers just to the heraldry of the Malatesta (which had the elephant) and NOT to a general iconographic connection.

Image

http://www.lib-art.com/imgpaintingthumb ... -pasti.jpg
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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