Re: The Hanged Man

#12
mmfilesi wrote:Yes, but not is a traitor anonymous. Its Judas. Its treachery to Jesus.


In the Middle Ages it was common place Judas next to the Devil.
I'm not sure what you mean exactly Marcos?

Beside the Devil himself, who betrayed God and is at the very centre of Hell, there is Judas who is the the greatest traitor who betrayed Jesus. He is the lowest of the low, being eternally eaten by the devil's middle mouth in Hell, as Brutus and Cassius who betrayed Caesar are in the other two mouths.

From Wikipedia :
Ninth Circle (Betrayal)
...
The traitors are distinguished from the "merely" fraudulent in that their acts involve betraying a special relationship of some kind. There are four concentric zones (or "rounds") of traitors, corresponding, in order of seriousness, to betrayal of family ties, betrayal of community ties, betrayal of guests, and betrayal of liege lords. In contrast to the popular image of Hell as fiery, the traitors are frozen in a lake of ice known as Cocytus, with each group encased in ice to progressively greater depths.

Round 1 is named Caïna, after Cain, who killed his brother. Traitors to kindred are here immersed in the ice up to their faces – "the place / where shame can show itself" Mordred, who attacked his relative King Arthur, is one of the traitors here: "him who, at one blow, had chest and shadow / shattered by Arthur's hand;" (Canto XXXII).

Round 2 is named Antenora, after Antenor of Troy, who according to medieval tradition, betrayed his city to the Greeks. Traitors to political entities, such as party, city, or country, are located here. Count Ugolino pauses from gnawing on the head of his rival Archbishop Ruggieri to describe how Ruggieri imprisoned him along with his children, condemning them to death by starvation. A number of correspondences, such as allusions to the same passage of the Aeneid, link this passage to the story of Paolo and Francesca in the second circle, indicating that this icy hell of betrayal is the final result of consent to sin(Cantos XXXII and XXXIII).

Round 3 is named Ptolomaea, probably after Ptolemy, son of Abubus, who invited Simon Maccabaeus and his sons to a banquet and then killed them. Traitors to their guests are punished here, lying supine in the ice, which covers them, except for their faces. They are punished more severely than the previous traitors, since the relationship to guests is an entirely voluntary one. Fra Alberigo, who had armed soldiers kill his brother at a banquet, explains that sometimes a soul falls here before Atropos cuts the thread of life. Their bodies on Earth are immediately possessed by a demon, so what seems to be a walking man has reached the stage of being incapable of repentance (Canto XXXIII).

Round 4 is named Judecca, after Judas Iscariot, Biblical betrayer of Christ. Here are the traitors to their lords and benefactors. All of the sinners punished within are completely encapsulated in ice, distorted in all conceivable positions. With no one to talk to here, Dante and Virgil quickly move on to the centre of Hell (Canto XXXIV).


Satan is trapped in the frozen central zone in the Ninth Circle of Hell, Canto 34.
In the very centre of Hell, condemned for committing the ultimate sin (personal treachery against God), is Satan (Lucifer). Satan is described as a giant, terrifying beast with three faces, one red, one black, and one a pale yellow:
he had three faces: one in front bloodred;
and then another two that, just above
the midpoint of each shoulder, joined the first;
and at the crown, all three were reattached;
the right looked somewhat yellow, somewhat white;
the left in its appearance was like those
who come from where the Nile, descending, flows.
Satan is waist deep in ice, weeping tears from his six eyes, and beating his six wings as if trying to escape, although the icy wind that emanates only further ensures his imprisonment (as well as that of the others in the ring). Each face has a mouth that chews on a prominent traitor, with Brutus and Cassius feet-first in the left and right mouths respectively. These men were involved in the assassination of Julius Caesar—an act which, to Dante, represented the destruction of a unified Italy and the killing of the man who was divinely appointed to govern the world. In the central, most vicious mouth is Judas Iscariot—the namesake of Judecca and the betrayer of Jesus. Judas is being administered the most horrifying torture of the three traitors, his head gnawed by Satan's mouth, and his back being forever skinned by Satan's claws. What is seen here is a perverted trinity: Satan is impotent, ignorant, and full of hate, in contrast to the all-powerful, all-knowing, and loving nature of God.
So, yes... Judas is the ultimate representation of betrayal... but are you suggesting that he is our Hanged Man? If so, that's a topic which has been discussed a lot before, and I certainly see the appeal of it, but the typical depiction on the card doesn't match very well with the description in the Bible. Yes, Judas is a traitor, and the worst of the worst of them... but is he our Hanged Man?
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: The Hanged Man

#13
but are you suggesting that he is our Hanged Man?
Yes I think so.

This is easily understood when is represented with coins, as the hanged man of Medici's Deck:
06_carlosvi_colgado.jpg
06_carlosvi_colgado.jpg (37.27 KiB) Viewed 2838 times
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: The Hanged Man

#15
mmfilesi wrote:
but are you suggesting that he is our Hanged Man?
Yes I think so.

This is easily understood when is represented with coins, as the hanged man of Medici's Deck:
06_carlosvi_colgado.jpg
I agree it's tempting to think so... but is that really what the artist is trying to show? Didn't Judas hang himself? Does the Hanged Man look like someone who hung himself? Is that how suicide by hanging is depicted? Isn't what we are seeing, rather, someone who has been hung?

So, yes.. I agree that the "Charles VI" (and some others imply it as well) with the bags of money certainly brings to mind Judas (I've argued in favour of this point myself in the past, see this: http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php? ... stcount=16 ). But isn't it just as likely to be showing a thief?

I'm not sure. I used to be more convinced it was Judas, but now I'm less so. What would be interesting would be to find some medieval images depicting Judas... as it is, we know that the Hanged Man has a 15th century cognate with.. generally.. a traitor.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: The Hanged Man

#17
robert wrote:
mmfilesi wrote:
but are you suggesting that he is our Hanged Man?
Yes I think so.

This is easily understood when is represented with coins, as the hanged man of Medici's Deck:
As well as the actual method of death being different, surely motivation for the larger number of traitors would have been money rather than other reasons? I don't see that this would apply only to Judas, whom I'd expect to have silver coins rather than gold (although I'll admit that this is a small and somewhat dubious point).

Pen
He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy...

Re: The Hanged Man

#18
As well as the actual method of death being different, surely motivation for the larger number of traitors would have been money rather than other reasons?
:-? ... maybe, maybe... but many betrayals were the result of hungry for territories, for adquired more power, or for fear. The only ones who changed sides for money are the condottieri. And this isnt considered very bad.

I don't see that this would apply only to Judas, whom I'd expect to have silver coins rather than gold (although I'll admit that this is a small and somewhat dubious point).
Well, I dont know if they were as accurate in allegorical cards.
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: The Hanged Man

#19
... :-) ... these Tarot cards were made by various persons with various opinions ... what's difficult in this plurality of life? It's probably true, that some persons thought of Judas with the Hanging Man. Also it's probably true that others did not. Similar with all other cards.

It's very likely, that NO HANGING MAN CONGRESS took place during 15th century and likely also not later. These producers didn't live at the same place, they often had no communication between each others. In wonderful anarchy everybody made, what his personal and private situation demanded (for instance commissioners or buyers of the decks). And naturally there were dissonances, things, which don't fit with each other. This feature is called FREEDOM OF ART, which causes by its definition a lot of funny contrasts, or FREE MARKET, which means, that decks sold good, when artists made that, what the public desired.

... :-) ... there also different opinions nowadays. And there are even Tarot decks without Hanging man.

The Ferrarese number version of Tarot formed ...

...
11 Hermit
12 Hanging Man
13 Death
14 Devil
15 Tower (with negative association)
...

... whereby there is the observation to be made, that especially the Ferrarese Hermit pictures show a negative element of time, that is age. The hermit is crippled, old and somehow sick.

So we've 5 clear "bad elements" in a row ... as we can observe in the Minchiate rules "5 elements" as a group had tradition. For instance there are the 5 Rossi.
Also - if we analyze the 14 Bembo special cards we also have groups of 5-elements:

5 persons

1 Magician with 4 suit symbols
---
2 Popess
3 Empress
4 Emperor
5 Pope

5 Allegories

6 Love
7 Chariot
8 Justice
9 Hermit
----------
10 Wheel-woman with 4 ascending and descending figures

and then follow 3 "bad elements" + one "good end" figure

11 (later 0) Fool = stupidity
12 Hanging Man = Traitor
13 Death
--------
14 (later 20) Judgment

From this developed the Milanese or Western Order. We observe, that the Hermit is aged, but well dressed. Similar we observe the same for the Charles VI deck hermit.

The Bembo-14 had a 5+5+3+1 model
The later Ferrarese 22-version worked with 1+5+5+5+5+1-scheme.
The Milanese version didn't follow this idea

Leonello d'Este died young.
Most of the brothers and sisters of Borso died young.
Filippo Maria Visconti was crippled in his age.
Cosimo di Medici was long sick with handicapped walking before he died, all members of his family suffered from the same illness.

From this we see, that there was something different in Milan/Florence and Ferrara and a contrast in the interpretation developed.
Well, this is about the hermit and not about the hanging man, but one can learn, that one cannot conclude from one "motif perspective" to another. If artist A meant Judas, it doesn't mean, that artist B also meant Judas.

Shame pictures were common ... and they usually meant somebody specific, who was accused of treason. But .. for instance, what also could happen: The painter Andrea del Castagno had been nicknamed "Hanging man" cause he had once a commission for "hanging man" paintings ...likely the reason, why the story developed, that he had murdered Domenico Veneziano, another artist and probably his friend. But art history believes that Domenico still lived, when Castagno already had died by the plague in 1457.

Image

http://www.paradoxplace.com/Perspective ... stagno.htm

For instance he made a series of 9 famous persons, somehow mutating the neuf preux idea.

Image


He also painted Judas, as part of a Last-Supper-picture
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Hanged Man

#20
what's difficult in this plurality of life?
:) :) :) ... Ok, its true.

We can begin with Cary Yale, ok friends?

I need find one ars moriendi for reply... later comes back
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

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