The Pope

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Re: The Pope

Postby mikeh on 23 Apr 2010, 09:01

Steve, I see the whip you are talking about; I assume you mean by the Pope's elbow on our our left (his right). It is very faint on the Conver, much less obvious than the knife (we can't use the Camoin-Jodorowsky as a guide to what the Conver looked like originally, they're not restorers in the art-world sense), but that doesn't mean it isn't meaningful. I don't yet see the lyre, or anything with four strings. Can you describe it more specifically?
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Re: The Pope

Postby SteveM on 24 Apr 2010, 07:15

mikeh wrote:Steve, I see the whip you are talking about; I assume you mean by the Pope's elbow on our our left (his right). It is very faint on the Conver, much less obvious than the knife (we can't use the Camoin-Jodorowsky as a guide to what the Conver looked like originally, they're not restorers in the art-world sense), but that doesn't mean it isn't meaningful. I don't yet see the lyre, or anything with four strings. Can you describe it more specifically?


The lyre is a stretch: lets stick with the indisputable, whether by accident or intent the lines are certainly there that if blocked in with a different colour would define a sickle and whip, both emblems of Castor/Apollo and Pollux/Heracles.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot
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Re: The Pope

Postby SteveM on 25 Apr 2010, 01:09

SteveM wrote:
mikeh wrote:Steve, I see the whip you are talking about; I assume you mean by the Pope's elbow on our our left (his right). It is very faint on the Conver, much less obvious than the knife (we can't use the Camoin-Jodorowsky as a guide to what the Conver looked like originally, they're not restorers in the art-world sense), but that doesn't mean it isn't meaningful. I don't yet see the lyre, or anything with four strings. Can you describe it more specifically?


The lyre is a stretch: lets stick with the indisputable, whether by accident or intent the lines are certainly there that if blocked in with a different colour would define a sickle and whip, both emblems of Castor/Apollo and Pollux/Heracles.


In the image here with the whip the lyre does not appear to be present as it usually is (as is in the image on the right where he is holding an arrow). Perhaps related to the myth that Apollo gifted his whip to Hermes/Mercury in exchange for the Lyre?

http://www.lindahall.org/events_exhib/e ... op_par.htm
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot
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Re: The Pope

Postby SteveM on 25 Apr 2010, 01:28

SteveM wrote:In the image here with the whip the lyre does not appear to be present as it usually is (as is in the image on the right where he is holding an arrow). Perhaps related to the myth that Apollo gifted his whip to Hermes/Mercury in exchange for the Lyre?

http://www.lindahall.org/events_exhib/e ... op_par.htm


quote:
(ll. 463-495) Then Hermes answered him with artful words: `You question me carefully, O Far-worker; yet I am not jealous that you should enter upon my art: this day you shall know it. For I seek to be friendly with you both in thought and word. Now you well know all things in your heart, since you sit foremost among the deathless gods, O son of Zeus, and are goodly and strong. And wise Zeus loves you as all right is, and has given you splendid gifts. And they say that from the utterance of Zeus you have learned both the honours due to the gods, O Far-worker, and oracles from Zeus, even all his ordinances. Of all these I myself have already learned that you have great wealth. Now, you are free to learn whatever you please; but since, as it seems, your heart is so strongly set on playing the lyre, chant, and play upon it, and give yourself to merriment, taking this as a gift from me, and do you, my friend, bestow glory on me. Sing well with this clear-voiced companion in your hands; for you are skilled in good, well-ordered utterance. From now on bring it confidently to the rich feast and lovely dance and glorious revel, a joy by night and by day. Whoso with wit and wisdom enquires of it cunningly, him it teaches through its sound all manner of things that delight the mind, being easily played with gentle familiarities, for it abhors toilsome drudgery; but whoso in ignorance enquires of it violently, to him it chatters mere vanity and foolishness. But you are able to learn whatever you please. So then, I will give you this lyre, glorious son of Zeus, while I for my part will graze down with wild-roving cattle the pastures on hill and horse-feeding plain: so shall the cows covered by the bulls calve abundantly both males and females. And now there is no need for you, bargainer though you are, to be furiously angry.'

(ll. 496-502) When Hermes had said this, he held out the lyre: and Phoebus Apollo took it, and readily put his shining whip in Hermes' hand, and ordained him keeper of herds. The son of Maia received it joyfully, while the glorious son of Leto, the lord far-working Apollo, took the lyre upon his left arm and tried each string with the key. Awesomely it sounded at the touch of the god, while he sang sweetly to its note.


Phoebus Apollo goes on later in the text to extract an oath from Hermes that he will not steal his lyre and bow:

(ll. 513-520) Then the son of Leto said to Hermes: `Son of Maia, guide and cunning one, I fear you may steal form me the lyre and my curved bow together; for you have an office from Zeus, to establish deeds of barter amongst men throughout the fruitful earth. Now if you would only swear me the great oath of the gods, either by nodding your head, or by the potent water of Styx, you would do all that can please and ease my heart.'

end quote from The Homeric Hymn to Hermes translated by Evelyn-White
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot
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Re: The Pope

Postby mikeh on 27 Apr 2010, 04:27

I have been researching the Dioscuri more thoroughly. I will post things relevant to the Sun card there, and to the Pope card here. On the Pope, the main thing of interest is a much-imitated Roman statue of the Dioscuri in the Prado, from the 1st century c.e. (http://www.myartprints.com/a/roman-1/ca ... -ores.html).

Image

It might actually be Orestes and Plyades, but that is not important. What is of interest is how it was taken, and how well known it was. First, here is a sketch by Poussin, 1628.

Image

I don't know if this sketch or other renderings of the statue were well known, but I would expect they were. The Poussin is of interest chiefly for showing that the statue was an object of interest in the 17th century, and so a possible inspiration for the pose of the Chosson and Dodal, and then later the Conver (in order below, after the Noblet on the left). The Poussin does not show the top club or torch; so I expect that it was not there then (nor the fig leaves, of course).

Image

Then there was a "copy" done 1685-1707 in Paris, exhibited at the Louvre until 1712, and moved to the gardens at Versailles, where it remains today.

Image

Here whatever is supposed to be in the upper hand is incorporated. It is not what is held or not held that is of interest, however, but rather the hand and arm positions of the twin on our right, both of them, which resemble those of the acolyte on our left in the card. The hand position of the other twin resembles that of the twin on our right in the Sun card. (I think the goddess is probably Juno, with whom they were associated, but I'm not sure.)

The hands (including what is in them) or the right-hand twin in the statue also resemble those of the two torchbearers in the Mithraic reliefs, of which I posted a woodcut from Cartari 1647. That may account for why they were sometimes shown with Phrygian caps, a characteristic of Mithras. According to Maurice Albert in [i]Le Culte de Castor et Pollux en Italie]/i], in Google Books, the Greek sources were quite specific that the caps were oval, to suggest the eggs that Castor and Pollux hatched from. I will quote these sources if I locate them.

The hairdos of the Dioscuri were also important, at least to the 16th century writers, having to do with what was enhanced and what was shaved off (tonsured, in a sense). I am still working on that.
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Re: The Pope

Postby mikeh on 28 Apr 2010, 21:44

Looking at the statue of the Dioscuri in my previous post, I do not see that their heads are tonsured. Rather, it is probably that they have victory wreaths around their heads. But wreaths and tonsures are not that far apart: both form a dark circular pattern around the head. Daimonax in fact declares their equivalence, and that hence the two acolytes are initiates of Dionysus. Perhaps so; but all sorts of initiates might wear wreaths, and more after they have successfully passed than before they started. Instead, I have looked for references to tonsures as such in the literature about the Dioscuri. I have found something in Cartari's discussion of the "Castori" (as he calls the Dioscuri, following what seems to be standard Latin/Italian practice, as in the Vulgate's Acts 28:11). I am drawing from the chapter on Giove in the digitalized 1647 edition of his Imagini delli dei de gli antichi.

Cartari discusses the shaving of slaves' heads as part of the ceremony granting them freedom. He finishes with a line from Plautus; in my machine-assisted translation of Cartari that follows the Italian, I have inserted a standard translation of Plautus rather than Cartari's version, which I could not make sense of. Otherwise, I have left in Italian what I could not decipher. The beginning of what follows is about the cap that went on after the shaving.
E perciò Catullo in certo suo epigramma gli chiama fratelli Pileati, perche Pileo, che è voce Latina, significa capello in volgare. Pausania perimente scrive, che in certo luogo della Laconia erano alcune figurette Pileate, le quali ei non sa troppo bene se fossero fatte per gli Castori, (che sotto il nome dell'uno intesero gli antichi ambi i fratelli,) ma ben lo pensa. Ne lascierò hora di dire, che'l Pileo appresso de Romani fu la insegna della libertà, perciò che fu loro usanza, che quando volevano dare la libertà ad un servo gli facevano radere il capo, e gli davano à portare un capello. La quale cerimonia era fatta nel tempio di Feronia, perche questa fu la Dea di quelli, alli quali era donata la libertà, detti Libertini. Onde Plauto fa cosi dire un servo desideroso della libertà. Deh voglia Dio ch'io possa hoggi co'l capo raso pigliare il capello.

(And therefore Catullus in a certain epigram calls the brothers Pileati, because Pileo, that is Latin speech, means cap in the vulgar. Pausanias likewise writes, there were some figurettes Pileate in a certain place in Laconia, which he doesn't know for certain if they were done of the Castori, (for under that name was meant by the ancients the name of the twin brothers) but he believes it. Of it lascierò now to say, che'l Pileo I approach Roman de it was the insignia of liberty, therefore that it was their custom, that when they wanted to give liberty to a servant, they shaved his head, and they gave him a cap to wear. The ceremony was done in the temple of Feronia, because this was the Goddess of those to whom liberty was given, called Libertines. Whence Plautus says similarly of a servant desirous of his liberty: "May Jupiter [God, Catari says] grant, that this day, bald, with shaven crown, I may assume the cap of freedom." (AMPHITRYON ; Act 1, http://www.archive.org/stream/comedieso ... t_djvu.txt)

I have discussed the cap in more detail on the "Sun" thread, at viewtopic.php?f=23&t=402&p=6889#p6889. Here I want to focus on the shaving. My suggestion is that it is an extreme form of the tonsure that we see on the acolytes of the Pope card.

Reading Wikipedia, I found that the Eastern Church early on practiced the shaving of the entire head ((http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonsure), claiming Pauline precedent at Acts 18:18:
Paulus vero cum adhuc sustinuisset dies multos fratribus valefaciens navigavit Syriam et cum eo Priscilla et Aquila qui sibi totonderat in Cencris caput habebat enim votum.
(Douay-Rheims trans.: But Paul, when he had stayed yet many days, taking his leave of the brethren, sailed thence into Syria (and with him Priscilla and Aquila), having shorn his head in Cenchrae. For he had a vow.)

It was also Paul, you will recall, who later sailed to Rome under the sign of the "Castore," meaning Castor and Pollux (Acts 28:11). The vow is an interesting bit: as I said previously, it looks like the acolytes are taking a vow.

In the West, one extreme form of tonsure, most likely shaving off everything above the earline, was practiced by the Irish Church and much attacked by the Roman Church, which said it was associated with the heretic Simon Magus and that they should wear the tonsure of St. Peter instead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonsure). It is that Roman tonsure, of course, that we see on the Pope card.

Before the conversion of the Irish to Christianity, the Irish tonsure was apparently worn by the Druids (Lewis Spence, History and Origins of Druidism, p.53, in Google Books). It appears that the cult of Castor and Pollux was also popular among the Celts, whose priests the Druids were. Here is Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castor_and_Pollux)
The Celts also worshipped Castor and Pollux; the 1st century BC historian Diodorus Siculus records that the twins were the gods most worshipped in the west of Gaul. An altar found at Paris depicts them among Celtic figures such as the god Cernunnos, as well as Roman deities such as Jupiter and Vulcan.

So I wonder if the shaving of the head was practiced because Druids were priests of the Dioscuri, among other gods, after which one was expected to wear their characteristic cap. I need more information before feeling confident about such a conclusion.

Some websites, including Catholic ones, say something different from Cartari, that long hair was the sign of the freeman, and a shaven head the sign of a slave. The New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14779a.htm) says:
Indeed, among the Greeks and Romans such a custom was a badge of slavery. On this very account, the shaving of the head was adopted by the monks.

On this view, tonsure was adopted in the early monasteries as a sign of voluntary slavery to the regimens of the order.

By the 18th century, however, I think that people mostly saw the shaving of the head mainly as a sign of admission into a religious order, as it indeed is in both the Eastern and Western Church. Perhaps they saw it as a cross-cultural symbol imitating the bald head of the newborn. (That is how I learned to interpret it, at any rate.) People who knew Cartari's account would likely have seen it in similar terms: the shaving of a slave's head as a symbol of his rebirth as a free man, the symbol of a former slave rather than of an existing one.

In the Pope card, the tonsure probably was seen in both ways: voluntary submission to those above the acolytes in the order, and rebirth as a free person no longer enslaved by the things of this world. And in that sense, to be granted the privilege of choosing one's own life, for good or for ill, and the opportunity to be bound freely to the good in the course of many trials, is indeed an occasion worthy of a wreath of celebration and honor. I will investigate further my hypothetical connection of tonsure to the cult of the Dioscuri.
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Re: The Pope

Postby SteveM on 29 Apr 2010, 08:36

dio scuri

Through life's war torn changing landscape
are born the twins of love and strife:
strange brothers, human and divine.

Selfish gene and selfless other
invite guests of all that hunger
to make of hosts their bread and wine.

Welcome stranger to the slaughter,
brothers in flesh and blood lets dine:
bring on your scourge and bring your knife,

pass on the cup, and rest awhile.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot
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Pope with donkey in lot book / "Oldest Tarot"

Postby Huck on 21 Feb 2011, 15:37

There are two lot book appearances of the motif "pope with donkey".

1. Fränkisches Losbuch (c. 1426-1450)

Image

...

more at
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=663
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Re: The Pope

Postby Lorredan on 31 May 2012, 09:19

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=crosier& ... s:18,i:152

This is a gothic crosier.
Since the aprox 12th Century- Popes did not carry a crosier. Not even when they are the Bishop of Rome.Popes can carry a cross staff called a ferula.(Pope Benedict carrys one) The reason Popes do not carry a crosier is that Peter gave his staff to another apostle to raise the dead and therefore Peter no longer had one as head of the Church. The people who carry a crosier are Bishops performing pontifical duties or pastoral care; or Abbots and Abbesses or depictions of Saints. So somewhere along the line artists of the woodblock who named their cards made a mistake. I think they thought the handpainted cards depicted a Pope and Popesse when they most likely depicted an Abbot and a Abbess.
On the Cary Yale sheet that is either a Bishop or an Abbot like Saint Benedict/Domonic/Ambrose. The style is Gothic and started in the mid 1300 hundreds for Monastic orders mostly- and was strong in Spain and Germany. The crosier has a pointed bottom to goad the flock and force piety and encourage virtue. The so called Pope with Donkey that Huck showed has the crosier pointed the wrong way and appears to be a joke.
The triple cross on some Tarot de Marseille was used by popes way before 1100. Crosiers with leaf like volutes and furls are much later 1600-1700 for example.
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Re: The Pope

Postby robert on 31 May 2012, 10:34

The crosier is one of the identifying items of the Tarot de Marseille I type cards. The Noblet and Dodal both have it, and so does the Vieville. In these cards though, the pope has the triple tiera, so it does seem to imply a pope rather than a bishop.

I agree that the card on the Cary Sheet appears to be a bishop, not a pope. Soooooooo.... what does that mean? Perhaps it means that IF the Cary Sheet is an ancestor to the Tarot de Marseille (possible, but not at all certain), then by the time of the Tarot de Marseille as we know it the bishop was turned into a Pope. It also has to be remembered that what is depicted on the cards might not be a reference to a contemporary pope, but could be a historically famous pope or bishop, so the crossier isn't necessarily indicative of the time the card was created.

I'll have to check again, but my memory when researching this years ago was that the Crosier was older, and that the triple cross replaced it.
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