Re: The Pope

#31
This is probably what I'm thinking of:
wikipedia wrote:A crosier was also carried on some occasions by the pope, beginning in the early days of the church. This practice was gradually phased out and had disappeared by the time of Innocent III's papacy in the thirteenth century. In the Middle Ages, popes would carry a three-barred cross (one more bar than on those carried before archbishops), in the same manner as other bishops carried a crosier. This was in turn phased out, but Paul VI introduced the modern papal pastoral staff, which instead of the triple cross depicts a modern rendition of the crucified Christ, whose arms are fixed to a crossbar that is curved somewhat in the manner of an Eastern crozier.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crosier
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: The Pope

#32
Lorredan wrote:The so called Pope with Donkey that Huck showed has the crosier pointed the wrong way and appears to be a joke.
The picture and the following text is addressed by the handwritten title "Der Babest", meaning "the Pope".

.... :-) ... the text might be from the German region, where they "babbele", when they speak. So there is some tendency to express "P" with "b", so it's not the papal "Papst", but "Babest".
... :-) ... it's a lot book, not a joke.

22 the "Babest" is preceded by 21 Emperor. There is no place for an error, that this means not the pope, but a bishop.

Image
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Pope

#33
here is a 15th Century Gothic Abbot/Saint/Bishop
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbot
Here is a statue of Pope Sylvestor (scroll down) with his triple cross typical of his time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbot
You need to see the Caeremoniale Episcoporum or in the last 100 or so years the Catholic Encyclopedium.
The Person we call the Pope in the Visconti is carying a ferula which this latest Pope carries. A cross on a staff.
So the person who designed the Tarot de Marseille depicted a Pope in one set of cards from before 1100 and Bishop in another with a Curved staff or Pastoral Staff. The triple cross is the older Papal staff.
~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: The Pope

#34
I'm confused. The wikipedia article (and I realise that is not authorative) states that the triple cross replaced the older crosier, or am I misreading it?

Ultimately, I don't think it matters, unless you wish to suggest that the Tarot de Marseille iconography reflects a contemporary custom, is actually older than the 1440s. The issue as I see it is that we have one tradition with the crosier (Cary Sheet, Dodal, Noblet, Vieville), and one with the triple cross (Geofroy, Conver, Chosson, etc..).
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: The Pope

#35
Lorredan wrote:here is a 15th Century Gothic Abbot/Saint/Bishop
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbot
Here is a statue of Pope Sylvestor (scroll down) with his triple cross typical of his time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbot
You need to see the Caeremoniale Episcoporum or in the last 100 or so years the Catholic Encyclopedium.
The Person we call the Pope in the Visconti is carying a ferula which this latest Pope carries. A cross on a staff.
So the person who designed the Tarot de Marseille depicted a Pope in one set of cards from before 1100 and Bishop in another with a Curved staff or Pastoral Staff. The triple cross is the older Papal staff.
~Lorredan
I don't see Sylvester there, but I see him here ...

Image


In the article "Crozier" I see ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crosier
A crosier was also carried on some occasions by the pope, beginning in the early days of the church. This practice was gradually phased out and had disappeared by the time of Innocent III's papacy in the thirteenth century. In the Middle Ages, popes would carry a three-barred cross (one more bar than on those carried before archbishops), in the same manner as other bishops carried a crosier.
Well, the Fränkische Losbuch (the text with the donkey) is given to 1425-1450, but my analyses to the used system came to the conclusion, that at least parts of its system should have been much older, perhaps coming from Spain in 13th century with influence of Alfonso the Wise or from Byzanz.

It might well be, that the version of 1425-1450 was in its pictures a cheaper copy (and possibly a translation to a more modern German) of a much earlier version and that on this way the old crosier came to the text.

The printed version of the lot book (1520) ...
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=663
... used then a cross for the pope.

Image


Anyway, Germany has some distance to the popes, and like the people hadn't seen much of them in younger times. So a changed detail like the triple cross might have been not so well known there for a longer time
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Pope

#36
Your picture of The Bishop with the triple tiera is interesting Huck. I don't think I've ever seen a triple tiera used for anything but the Pope.

Does anyone know of any other image where a triple tiera is worn by someone other than the Pope? (or popess of course).

Let's try it the other way, looking at what looks like a mitre on the Cary Sheet, can we identify images of Popes wearing that rather than a tiara? Of course, he is "The Bishop of Rome", so maybe that's all there is to it.

Cary Sheet Pope (assumed):

Image


Looking again, it does seem to have a crown around it. Very odd. Can we find a match?
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: The Pope

#37
robert wrote:Your picture of The Bishop with the triple tiera is interesting Huck. I don't think I've ever seen a triple tiera used for anything but the Pope.
... :-) ... It's definitely a POPE, not a bishop, if you read the text of the lot book. A "Babest", as I already explained. And this Pope has a triple Tiara, and something, which others want to explain as a bishop sign.

Well, the text (or parts of it) was made likely in Swabia, and this was Emperor country (Staufer in 13th century) and there were problems between Popes and Emperors. Perhaps it was opportune to remind the pope on the condition, that he was only bishop of Rome in Germany ... who knows. Perhaps there were similar interests in France in 17th/18th century ... as far the appearances of bishop signs at Pope cards in specific French Tarot cards in 17th/18th century are concerned.
History is occasionally a little complicated. If a Wikipedia author thinks, that a specific rule always reigned (triple cross for popes since 13th century), then it doesn't mean, that this was always true.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Pope

#38
I guess I never realised how much the card images were dependent on what they were trying to portray- rather than what they actually portray.
So who wears a Mitre and a crown (Like the Cary Yale)which came from the edict in the bible Exodus And thou shalt put the mitre upon his head, and put the holy crown upon the mitre. ?
Well the Holy Roman Emperor did as in Frederick and Sigismondo. It was called an Imperial crown.
So what are they trying to portray in the Bishop/Abbot with his Monk(In the Cary-Yale it is a Bishop and I truely believe that in the Tarot de Marseille it is a Bishop- some Mitres looked like triple crowns they were so embellished.)
I think it is something to do with exodus- some Court is away from Home.

Now these artists who put a triple cross on their Pope card- in 15th Century had ample examples of that type of staff in Statues around Italy. That the Popes of the time of cards did not use them (Pastoral staffs) seems a moot point if it was a Pope they were depicting. What I am confused about is why cards of the same type used very different symbols to explain the same thing. One or other is wrong. Or maybe I am reading to much into it and it is all artistic license.
~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: The Pope

#39
Well ...
... the bishop figure was in the chess game before Tarot existed, though it wasn't everywhere a bishop. The French said "Fou", and others had a bow shooter. Some assumed, the elephant would be the bishop, and others had the elephant for a rook. Cessolis took the bishop as adviser, the Germans finally said "Läufer" (Runner ... = messenger) and associated it to a figure known only in the Courier game. And the Queen existed only in European chess.

The "Bishop" figure is said to have come from English and Danish chess.

There was a general line of prohibition of Chess for priests, monks etc. ... maybe till begin of 15th century. Likely not everywhere and not at every time... was it also in England? Thomas Beckett, archbishop of Canterbury, had been a chess player and he became a great man for England, so possibly not as strong as elsewhere ... but I see also a later bishop of Canterbury, who suggested prohibition. It's difficult to estimate, how somewhere in Europe the chess prohibition for clerics was stronger than elsewhere.

http://www.chess-poster.com/english/che ... bishop.htm
It was also forbidden in Worcester, England in 1240 by the religious leadership.
...
In 1291 the Archbishop of Cantebury, John Peckman, was forbidding Chess. He threatened to put anyone on a diet of bread and water if they played Chess.
...
In 1380 William of Wickham (1324-1404), founder of New College, Oxford, and Winchester College, forbade Chess. He was the Bishop of Winchester and the Chancellor of England twice.
The prohibitive tendency (for the clerics) seems to change at begin of 15th century. Likely this depends on the
the "Three-Popes"-situation of c. 1410 which caused the council of Constance far in the North (from the perspective of Italy) in 1415. 3 popes were abdicated and a new pope chosen - this likely indicates, that the position of the church was weakened, and that the positions of nobility, kings and the emperor was strengthened generally - also those of the citizens. As these accepted chess as a "game of skill" the opposition against chess diminished.

In the card game the pope appeared in the Karnöffel game, at least in the version, which was described by Mysner in c. 1450 (the name Karnöffel appears first in 1426). In Master Ingold's profession game the church is presented by a "Pfaff" (1432), and the Hofämterspiel has a "Kaplan" in 1455.

For the Trionfi/Tarot cards it was so, that 4 Kings of the usual card play got as their dominant trump an Emperor, and the 4 Queens got an Empress. It wouldn't have had much sense to refer to a Bishop card instead of a Pope card in this "higher context". And this development to "higher context" seems to have already started with the Karnöffel.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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