Re: The Popess

#31
Sorry Mikeh, I am now studying the Philodoxo and can not answer good... Only to put the cite of Decembrio:
Gli piaceva anche giocare con gli astragali: genere di giuoco che, per il suo richiamo omerico, ha trovato celebratori recenti. Nei giorni festivi talvolta giocava a dadi mentre, più che giocare, preferiva assistere alle partite con quelli che la gente chiama scacchi.
Pier Candido Decembrio. Vita di Filippo Maria Visctonti (LXI).
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: The Popess

#32
Hi Mikeh :) ...

1.
And none of the early lists have "bishop" as the title of one of the cards.
Discorso anonymus:
«Seguono due Papi, uno col Regno et l’altro senza et doppo questi L’Imperatore, et il Re, che sono le due supreme dignità; nello spirituale Cardinale et Papa, nel temporale Re et Imperatore».
In general, we see these two cards (popes and pope) experimented many changes ... Many things may have happened. Why not a bishop / cardinal?

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=422

2.
In the pictures of the pope with a book that I have seen, the book is not as conspicuous;
In my humble opinion, I think it's an irrelevant iconographic detail (the size of the book). Or is the Bible or the Gospels, or, perhaps, the Nicene Creed (as the Faith of Giotto in the Scrovegni Chapel) ... I dont think that is an important detail.

3.
Even if we did have such a document, it wouldn't prove anything. It's just evidence, maybe good, maybe bad. People say crazy things in every century, and also boring, superficial things....
Well, friend, is a complicated problem. I can not answer well in English.Try to summarize my thoughts about this...

a) In general, I think the Church represented in the first deck of tarot is NOT a holy Church. Is another power on the Earth. Its a kingdom, the Republic of God, ruled by the Pope, but not sacred or transcendent. Its the Church of Rome as described by Dante, Petrarch and Boccaccio. That is, is a kingdom of shit, Babylon. Therefore it is in a miserable second position: in human court. If she is the CHURCH instead of church would be higher in the hierarchy of triumphs. Maybe in position 19.

b) in the case of PMB and Fournier. The iconography and the secondary concepts can lead us to two possibilities:

b.1. Mayfreda
b.2. Claryses

For now, I consider the two options maybe ++. We need work more about it.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=581

c) The popess Giovanna. I think this possibility is maybe--, especially after the Counter Reformation.

The popess Giovanna was used as a tool of the Protestants (the whore of Babylon). But just in Protestant countries the card was withdrawn (Junon, Fracasse ...). If she is Giovanna, the natural thing was to keep it.

And the Church of Rome said Giovanna is a horrible mith:
mmfilesi wrote:An interesting document, the opinion of Onofrio Panvinio about Popess Giovanna:

http://books.google.es/books?id=Ez88AAA ... &q&f=false
I don't think France would have retained this card if it been Popess Giovanna.

d) Isis.

- The card is found in human court, not between the stars-gods.

- And why not Diana or Athenea or Dafne or another goddess that appears in a document of the time. Iconographic or conceptually not make any sense that symbolizes Isis.

- I need continued in spanish, sorry:

En general, creo que las primeras barajas del tarot tienen más que ver con la Genealogía de los dioses de Boccaccio que con Las imágenes de los dioses de Cartari. En el período que media entre Boccaccio y Cartari podemos apreciar la progresiva neoplatonización y orientalización de la mitología, pero hasta entonces hay que se muy cautelosos. La baraja de Michelino está inspirada en Boccaccio y Boccaccio no confunde a Isis con la Virgen, ni a cualquier otro dios de la mitología grecolatina con las figuras del cristianismo.

++++++++++++++
A pastoral Staff of an Abbess- a sign of her authority as an Abbess.
Very interesting. Thanks Lorredan.

++++++++++++++
A report to the feast of the pheasant 1454 in Burgund.

http://trionfi.com/0/t/21/
Very interesting document. Thanks Huck.
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: The Popess

#34
Loredan: yes, thanks for the mitre. But wasn't Sister Manfreda probably an abbess before she took the title of popess? Her order wasn't big enough to have cardinals. So I don't see a problem, at least as regards the PMB card. The abbess staff reinforces her interpretation as Manfreda.

The Cary Sheet card is a special case, one of a kind. If it weren't for the book, her ambiguously feminine appearance, her churchiness, and especially that she is one a group of tarot cards near the time of the Steele Sermon, I'd wonder myself if she was a popess. I think it's a case of an artist's timidity and orthodoxy. He also can't bring himself to give her a clear-cut papal tiara, or even make her unambiguously female.

It's like the "anonymous discourse" that Marcos quoted: that poor guy is looking at a bunch of cards with two popes in it. He can't bring himself to accept that it's two popes, even male ones, because there can only be one pope;so one of them, he decides, has to be a cardinal! Here is the quote again, with the machine's translation:
«Seguono due Papi, uno col Regno et l’altro senza et doppo questi L’Imperatore, et il Re, che sono le due supreme dignità; nello spirituale Cardinale et Papa, nel temporale Re et Imperatore».
("Two Popes follow, one with the Kingdom et the other without et doppo these The emperor, et the King, they are the two supreme dignities; in the spiritual Cardinal et Pope, in the temporal King et Emperor.")

Similarly, one reason that the Eastern Church and the Western Church couldn't get together was the same issue: the West insisted upon just one Pope over all, so the Eastern patriarchs had to be cardinals, not popes over their own regions. That's a reason why I thought, and still speculate, that Bessarion had something to do with the "two popes" decks: as an Easterner and a Westerner, he wouldn't have thought there was anything wrong with two popes. "Two popes" is from this perspective propaganda for ecumenicism.

Huck: a nun in white headgear and black robe, with no tiara, is not the same as the PMB Popess with tiara in brown robe, which was apparently the order's color. The black-white is a typical nun's outfit, identifying her merely with the Church. Most of the Popess cards have the tiara and something else, a book or a key, to make her the female counterpart of the Pope. But I grant you that there is a ready association, for those who wish it, of any female cleric on a card to the Church, by way of the sponsa of the Song of Songs, fallen, in your pageant, among bad company; or simply because Ecclesia is a feminine noun.

Marcos quoted Decembrio:
Gli piaceva anche giocare con gli astragali: genere di giuoco che, per il suo richiamo omerico, ha trovato celebratori recenti. Nei giorni festivi talvolta giocava a dadi mentre, più che giocare, preferiva assistere alle partite con quelli che la gente chiama scacchi.
A machine translation:
He also liked to play with the astragalis: kind of game that, for his/her Homeric call, you/he/she has found recent celebrators. In the festive days it sometimes played to dice while, more than to play, preferred to assist to the games with those that people call chess.
This shows pretty clearly that although he knew the rules and could appreciate a good game he wasn't a player. He "assisted," meaning he watched others and maybe made suggestions. That's more than Tolfo would concede, so I thank you for the correction. The chess analogy is not ruled out on the grounds that Filippo didn't know chess. But I still wonder wheher he would have wanted a card game based on chess, because it would remind him of a game he didn't play well, and he wouldn't enjoy it as much.
c) The popess Giovanna. I think this possibility is maybe--, especially after the Counter Reformation.

The popess Giovanna was used as a tool of the Protestants (the whore of Babylon). But just in Protestant countries the card was withdrawn (Junon, Fracasse ...). If she is Giovanna, the natural thing was to keep it.
I think there is a difference between Popess Joan and the whore of Babylon. Popess Joan was admirable, up to a point, and not an indictment of the whole Catholic Church. Even her deceptiveness is because of the Church's misogyny. The "whore of Babylon" image is much stronger than Pope Joan, it's Pope Joan to the nth power, the whole hierarchy. And anyway, the "whore of Babylon" association is of a later time. It might have been an association in Protestant countries, sort of a "see, even the Italians considered the Church a whore." Belgium was officially Catholic, not Protestant, although many spoke the same language as nearby Netherlands, hence much mixing back and forth. And Switzerland was a confederacy that had both Catholic and Protestant constituents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Switzerland). It occurs to me that perhaps the change to Fracasse and Juno was because they feared a Popess would cause brawls, owing to the "whore of Babylon" association.
I don't think France would have retained this card if it been Popess Giovanna.

They probably had various theories of what the card meant. By then "Popess" was just a placeholder, having only the primary meaning of "female counterpart of the Pope," onto which to project whatever fit their conceptions: the Church, Pope Joan, and later (by late 1600s) Isis, Mary, or something else. France, too, was both Catholic and Protestant, with much fighting between the two sides, subsiding a little under the Edict of Nantes; and then, somewhat after the time of the Noblet, Louis XIV got rid of the Protestants, So to avoid conflict, although not changing the title or image, there would have been a need for other associations besides Popess Joan.
Isis.

- The card is found in human court, not between the stars-gods.

- And why not Diana or Athenea or Dafne or another goddess that appears in a document of the time. Iconographic or conceptually not make any sense that symbolizes Isis
In Boccaccio Isis is presented as a woman; the book is Famous Women. The early humanists treated pagan gods as historical persons deified by the people because of their unusual abilities. Even Marziano does so, as the Introduction to Trionfi's translation (http://trionfi.com/0/b/07/index.php) states:
The title " Tractatus De Deificatione Sexdecim Heroum " and the later text (" celestial princes and barons ") gives the impression, that the Greek gods are considered as deified heroes..,
But even in the ancient sources Isis was treated as human (and goddess only before and after she's on earth): her brother Osiris is killed twice, she fears for her son's life growing up, from scorpion bites, etc.

I don't have reason to think that the Popess was associated with Isis at the beginning, but slowly over time: for a few people, in the Cary Sheet, more by the 17th century in France, when Egyptomania was in full bloom there. What associates her with Isis is her prominent book, stole, and curtain; and that she had a male counterpart. Athena doesn't have these characteristics. Diana has only the male counterpart (Apollo); even so, some perhaps associated her with the Popess, as associated with the Moon (which is also an association to the Dyad in the Theology of Arithmetic), also associated with the sponsa of the Song of Songs ("dark but comely" vs. "ruddy"). But that is a much weaker association.

Marcos writes,
En general, creo que las primeras barajas del tarot tienen más que ver con la Genealogía de los dioses de Boccaccio que con Las imágenes de los dioses de Cartari. En el período que media entre Boccaccio y Cartari podemos apreciar la progresiva neoplatonización y orientalización de la mitología, pero hasta entonces hay que se muy cautelosos. La baraja de Michelino está inspirada en Boccaccio y Boccaccio no confunde a Isis con la Virgen, ni a cualquier otro dios de la mitología grecolatina con las figuras del cristianismo.
Or, through the translation machine:
In general, I believe that the first cards of the tarot have more that to see with the Genealogy of the gods of Boccaccio that with The images of the gods of Cartari. In the period that happens between(among) Boccaccio and Cartari we can estimate the progressive neoplatonización and orientalización of the mythology, but till then there is that very cautious. Michelino's card is inspired in Boccaccio and Boccaccio does not confuse Isis with the Virgin, not to any other god of the Greco-Roman mythology with the figures of the christianity.
I agree that Boccaccio does not reflect the "progressive neoplatonization and orientalization" of the mythology that we find in Cartari. I was careful to cite Cartari only in reference to the Noblet card and after. I cited Boccaccio (Famous Women, not the Geneology) for the Steele Sermon, Aretino, Schoen, and in part for the PMB (and including other Popess cards of that time, as reflected in the Rosenwald).

In between the two mythologists, especially between 1440 and 1550, is the transition. In 1440 the Italian merchant and antiquarian Cyriacus is already back from Egypt, reporting to Eugenius IV about his trip (Curran,The Egyptian Renaissance: The Afterlife of Ancient Egypt in Early Modern Italy, p. 60). In 1445 Leonello goes to see sister Beatrice in an "Isis show," as Huck reports. 1449 finds Cyriacus in Ferrara viewing the Belfiore Muses, but probably not invited there by Leonello just for that reason. In 1454 or 1455 Beatrice marries Tristano Sforza and moves to Milan, dying there c. 1497, the probable era of the Cary Sheet. In 1486 comes Pico's revival of ancient syncretism (see Farmer, Syncretism in the West: Pico's 900 Theses). The times are already changing.

Re: The Popess

#35
Hi friend! :)
I think it's a case of an artist's timidity and orthodoxy. He can't bring himself to draw the papal tiara, or even make her unambiguously female.
If I see a bishop, I think the cardmarker want draw a bishop. (My doubts is really a bishop,
He can't bring himself to accept that it's two popes, even male ones, because there can only be one pope;so one of them, he decides, has to be a cardinal!
why not? Sorry friend, but I think its a subjective interpretation of an objective fact. Just over the time of the great schism, we had two Christian communities in Europe ... Besides the Byzantine Empire. We can not say that the sources are wrong when they dont conform our theories, we must adjust our theories to the sources and not vice versa.
This shows pretty clearly that although he knew the rules and could appreciate a good game he wasn't a player.
Just the opposite. Chess is not like football. You can watch football without knowing how to play soccer, but to enjoy chess, to enjoy watching chess game, you need play good chess. Otherwise, it's boring.
Popess Joan was admirable, up to a point, and not an indictment of the whole Catholic Church
.

I think is admirable, you think is admirable... but Boccaccio think is perverse, as thought the official version of the Catholic Church:

the opinion of Onofrio Panvinio about Popess Giovanna:

http://books.google.es/books?id=Ez88AAA ... &q&f=false

Plus:
ret_puta.jpg
(137.82 KiB) Downloaded 1013 times
Belgium was officially Catholic, not Protestant,
The Netherlands, Flanders, Belgium ... were anti-Spanish. Spain was Catholic, the Protestant religion meant freedom. It is not a problem of religion but of politics.
They probably had various theories of what the card meant.
Yes. I think so.
In Boccaccio Isis is presented as a woman; the book is Famous Women
Boccaccio write about arround 104 or 106 (can not remember) women ... Why just Isis? Its not like Isis, not exist documents related Isis with tarot Popess...
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: The Popess

#36
I reckon the equal ranking of all four Papi, in at least some early versions of the game, makes the likelihood of her being representative of "false" religion problematic. If two Papi were played at the same time, the second one played would trump the first. This means the Whore of Babylon or Pope Joan could trump the True Pope in play. I just can't imagine it. Also, in some regional orders Mrs. Pope is not the lowest of the Papi.
When a clock is hungry, it goes back four seconds.

Re: The Popess

#37
R.A. Hendley wrote
This means the Whore of Babylon or Pope Joan could trump the True Pope in play. I just can't imagine it. Also, in some regional orders Mrs. Pope is not the lowest of the Papi.
I think that in decks with four papi, or even two, they are not differentiated into Pope and Popess. So it couldn't happen that Popess trumped Pope. At least that was my assumption about the deck the anonymous discourse is about. Am I wrong?

mmfilesi wrote
Sorry friend, but I think its a subjective interpretation of an objective fact. Just over the time of the great schism, we had two Christian communities in Europe ... Besides the Byzantine Empire.
But they didn't recognize each otheras having a valid jurisdiction; they each claimed sole jurisdiction over the whole. Finally they met to resolve the situation, which they recognized as not good. Even today the Catholic Church only recognizes one of the popes as valid. Having two popes was considered a mess. That's why they wouldn't recognize the Patriarch of Connstantinople as a legitimate Pope.
I think is admirable, you think is admirable... but Boccaccio think is perverse, as thought the official version of the Catholic Church:
Boccaccio only thought that her becoming Pope was perverse; or at least, that's all his God found offensive. He didn't abandon her to her own devices until then.
The Netherlands, Flanders, Belgium ... were anti-Spanish. Spain was Catholic, the Protestant religion meant freedom. It is not a problem of religion but of politics.
Well, that's not what I've read. What I've uinderstood is that During the Eighty Years' War, people voted with their feet, the Catholics moving south and the Protestants moving north. The northern provinces, what today is called "The Netherlands," was officially Protestant, and Roman Catholic worship soon became illegal (allegedly due to insurrectionary plotting by the Jesuits). In the southern provinces (including Flanders), today's "Belgium," the reverse was true. The same happened in Germany, with people moving to where they would be protected by the prince of their religion. There was an attempt at unification of the two halves during the French Revolution and after, but the Belgians revolted, preferring a Catholic state. Wikipedia explains some of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgium):
The Eighty Years' War (1568–1648) divided the Low Countries into the northern United Provinces (Belgica Foederata in Latin, the "Federated Netherlands") and the Southern Netherlands (Belgica Regia, the "Royal Netherlands"). The latter were ruled successively by the Spanish and the Austrian Habsburgs and comprised most of modern Belgium. This was the theatre of most Franco-Spanish and Franco-Austrian wars during the 17th and 18th centuries.

Following the campaigns of 1794 in the French Revolutionary Wars, the Low Countries—including territories that were never nominally under Habsburg rule, such as the Prince-Bishopric of Liège—were annexed by the French First Republic, ending Austrian rule in the region. The reunification of the Low Countries as the United Kingdom of the Netherlands occurred at the dissolution of the First French Empire in 1815.

The 1830 Belgian Revolution led to the establishment of an independent, Catholic and neutral Belgium under a provisional government and a national congress. Since the installation of Leopold I as king in 1831, Belgium has been a constitutional monarchy and parliamentary democracy.

Your reproduction of the "whore of Babylon" is a post-Lutheran cooptation of Durer's engraving of 1498. Somebody put the Pope's tiara, probably inspired by the Popess card, on Durer's woman. For that Protestant propagandist, she is the Roman Catholic Church, as opposed to the true Church championed by Luther.

Image


Durer's woman is not the Church, nor the Popess. The blurb accompnaying the engraving on the website (http://www.backtoclassics.com/gallery/a ... ofbabylon/) says,
He has also clearly indicated that the woman in the engraving is first and foremost a harlot, just the whore of Babylon; the only contemporary allegory in the engraving is about the people who worship her. The blurb explains,


mmfilesi wrote
.
I have already explained why Isis and not the other 105: the specific attributes of the conspicuously open book, the curtain, and the powerful, intelligent, independent, but also loving and suffering woman, like Joan. Also, equally important, her redemption-story fits well into a narrative structure corresponding to the tarot sequence, the story of her and Osiris in Plutarch and Diodorus being only one of two that I have found, besides the Christian, that do so (the other being the Greek Osiris, Dionysus).

To say more, I would have to move on to the Empress. But I can't do that yet. I need to post something about the 15th century Emperor first. Meanwhile, is there anything more on the Popess that you can say that might help me?

Re: The Popess

#38
mikeh wrote:
R.A. Hendley wrote
This means the Whore of Babylon or Pope Joan could trump the True Pope in play. I just can't imagine it. Also, in some regional orders Mrs. Pope is not the lowest of the Papi.
I think that in decks with four papi, or even two, they are not differentiated into Pope and Popess. So it couldn't happen that Popess trumped Pope. At least that was my assumption about the deck the anonymous discourse is about. Am I wrong?

"As can be seen from Mitelli's Tarocchino pack and from that in the Bibliotheque Nationale, before 1725 the Pope, Emperor, Popess, and Empress were present in the trump sequence, which had just the same subjects, though differently arranged, as the Tarot de Marseille. As usual, these four cards ranked above the Bagatto and below all other trump. But, unlike the practice in all other Tarot games, they had no order of precedence amongst themselves, but ranked as equal, being referred to collectively as Papi (Popes). If two or more Papi were played to a trick, the one played last beat the others."

pp.318, Dummett. The Game of Tarot


So, the Papess could trump the Pope.
When a clock is hungry, it goes back four seconds.

Re: The Popess

#39
Hi Mike...

1. Can you tell me some picture of the sixteenth or seventeenth where Isis appears dressed as a pope (not the tarot)?

2. Can you tell me a document from the sixteenth or seventeenth which says that Isis is the pope of tarot?

3. Do you really think that a (single) book is an iconographic evidence sufficient to relate Isis with the popess?

In this case, can I say the King of Swords is Alexander the Great because he has a sword? And the king of diamonds, Cosimo di Medici? ;)

4.
But they didn't recognize each otheras having a valid jurisdiction;
I know. I explained this to say is not "inconceivable" two popes.

5.
The 1830 Belgian Revolution
a) Belgium tarot dates (M. Dummett):

- Adam C. de Hautot. Ruan. Active between 1723 and 1748.
- Jean Galler. Bruselles. Active between 1738 and 1760.
- F.I. Vamdenborre. Bruselles (1762/1803)
- Nicolas Bodet. Bruselles (1743/1751)
- Sarton Frères. Bruselles (1756/1767)
- Martin Dupont. Bruselles (1766).

b) "Besançon" (swiss-german) tarot dates (M. Dummett):

- François Héri of Solothurn, north Suiza, c. 1725.
- Nicolas François Laudier, Strasbourg (1746)
- Johann Pelagius Mayer, Constanza (c. 1730 – 1777)
- G. Mann de Colmar (1752).

6.
Boccaccio only thought that her becoming Pope was perverse; or at least, that's all his God found offensive. He didn't abandon her to her own devices until then.
In general, Boccaccio always seeks the best of every woman. Even he says that Eve was good and the problem is that Adam was weak. We need read between the lines. At this time, ALL the popes had sex (and children), but only seems wrong that a woman has sex, why? Because in this moment, Giovanna lost her gender neutral and become full women.

7.
Somebody put the Pope's tiara,
There are more examples ...

Terwijl Alva vrijt met de hoer van Babylon raakt de economie van het land in verval, ca. 1572.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... en_003.jpg

Fernando Álvarez de Toledo y Pimentel 8-x :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernando_% ... ke_of_Alba
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: The Popess

#40
For 1 and 2, I don't think explicit documents or pictures linking the image on the card with a particular interpretation (Church, Isis) are necessary, for reasons already stated. I also don't think they are necessary for the other hypotheses, although they are evidence. I have my doubts about the validity of the images you've provided, as I thnk their intent is to associate the Pope of that time with the whore of Babylon and aren't about the Popess or the Church as such (see 7 below). But there are clear-cut Catholic images linking Popess and Church by at least the early 17th century. Ross posted one or two; I reproduce one of his below.

Image


I accept this one, for that time period. I do not think it is valid for the 15th century; nor do I think that it excludes other interpretations of the card.

For 3: the book is just one piece of evidence. And many famous people had swords and money; they had no distinctive relationship to these items, such as inventing them. They also don't fit into a 22 episode narrative anticipating the Christian message.

For 4, my point was not that the idea of 2 popes was inconceivable, just undesirable and unacceptable.

On 5: Brussels was in the southern Netherlands, until 1794 a separate, Catholic political entity from the Protestant northern Netherlands. Then unification was imposed from outside, by the French and later the powers who were victorious over Napoleon. The 1830 revolution restored that separation. The dates you give for the time of Captain Fracasse, in the tarot of that area, are all before 1794. I haven't checked the religion of the Swiss-German places at those times. I would guess that Strasbourg was Catholic and also Constanza. But they are all close to Protestant areas, even using the same language, which is what I thought was relevant.

On 6, mmfilesi wrote,
At this time, ALL the popes had sex (and children), but only seems wrong that a woman has sex, why? Because in this moment, Giovanna lost her gender neutral and become full women.
I don't think that Boccaccio is implying that Giovanna ever had gender neutrality; she was always a woman, and that the deception, pretending to be a man, was ok under the circumstances, at least until she took the job of Pope. There might even be the implication that the male popes were not gender neutral either. so it is absurd and unjust to vilify only the woman. I don't see in Boccaccio the idea that only if one does not have sex or children, can one be gender-neutral. or even the idea that one is not fully a man or a woman if one does not have sex or children.

7. The 1572 image is also post-Luther Protestant propaganda. I do not deny that the Popess image was used for that purpose then by Protestants. But the intent of this particular engraving is to identify Alba as a political agent of the Pope, to say that his activities are not merely to administer the Netherlands but to promote the Pope's political agenda, i.e. weed out Protestants and Protestantism everywhere and by any means necessary, and that the Pope is the new whore of Babylon, where seven-hilled Rome of the Vatican is the new Babylon, just as ancient Rome was the Babylon of the Book of Revelation. It is not about the Roman Catholic Church as such; nor can its political message be projected back into the 15th century.

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