Re: The Popess

#61
Here is a very interesting read......
http://www.cristoraul.com/ENGLISH/Medie ... R_XXI.html

I have no idea why I had not thought of this before for Mrs Pope.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kulturnik/ ... otostream/
These two statues are at a University of Law in Portugal 1270 -so early.
If you Take Theology and put the triple crown of Canon Law upon her head, you get a Popess, and Canon Law really does make her Mrs Pope.
Finally I can fix a sequence to the cards 2..5..8..11..14..17/18/19 (supernatural Virtues-God made them as he did the stars/Moon/Sun.
Theology=Popess
Prudence=Pope
Justice
Strength
Temperance
~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: The Popess

#62
Nice, Lorredan. I especially like your picture of Isis, of course, since that is one of my themes. Then the book that the Popess carries would be the basic text of Canon Law, perhaps a collection of stories involving the supernatural, e.g. the Bible.

For readers who might not have been following Bartolomeo di Bartoli (see Researcher's Study): Theologia is the governing spirit at the top of a circle on which are the four evangelists, on p. 3 of the book he did for Bruzio Visconti in the mid-14th century.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-931vaIkZinU/U ... _0504a.jpg posted at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=862&start=10#p12583

As such this Theologia fits the imagery of the World card, as it later developed. But early on, why not the Popess, since the Evangelists wrote parts of the book she is carrying? It would be good if there were early images of Theologia closer to that of the Popess.

I am not convinced that the Pope = Prudence in this schema. I see no identifying marks of that virtue. He looks more like the head of an organization that administers canon law.

Re: The Popess

#63
Well, in Visconti-Sforza type cards I would have to say I think Prudence is in the centre of the Wheel of Fortune (so therefore I do not think of it as a wheel of Fortune) I think it is an allegory of Time governed by Prudence; this was made famous by a painting, much later, (Ruebens??) that is titled so...From experience of the past- the present acts with prudence, so it does not spoil future actions...
But with the Tarot de Marseille style cards there is not any image of Prudence or Fortuna and the wheel is stopped with (I believe) Heresy on top or ruling.
Canon Law, the younger Laws made from Roman Law is about the patterns of practice for Baptised persons. It is a Code of Conduct or guidelines for actions, it is not the content of Faith- for that is Theology. Once the content of Faith is proved- then the Law is made. A system or Body of Law is called "Jurisprudence" and so without Canon Law- The Pope cannot make decisions- otherwise he might as well whistle in the wind. (which some Popes did :) )
Heresy was against the Roman Civil Law- not Canon Law.
So in one sense I believe you are right when you say....He looks more like the head of an organization that administers canon law.but he is also Pope Prudence for the Keys make it so.
~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Venetian engraving of Isis as Popess

#64
The Disquisitionum Magicarum Libri Sex by the Jesuit Martino Delrio, first published Louvain 1599-1600, was the second most popular book about witchcraft and sorcery, after the Malleus Maleficarum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Delrio). Many editions have for a frontispiece scenes from Exodus (http://books.google.com/books/about/Dis ... 65wJmBKP4C). But the Venetian edition of 1616 has something different:
Image

I got this from my brother's wife's sister's husband, who has the book. Here is the detail of the engraving at the bottom of the page:

Image


This lady wears a papal tiara and holds out the first two fingers of her right hand, as in a papal blessing. From the pyramids/obelisks on each side, I would think an Egyptian setting is indicated. Also, her dress is covered with magical symbols, probably also to be seen as hieroglyphics. I am not sure what she has in her left hand, a bouquet of heads and skulls, perhaps. There seems to be a tail. the Latin inscription around the border is perhaps HINC RELIGIO VERA. In any case, she would seem to be an Egyptian female magician, of whom by far the best known would have been Isis, who was taught the art by her father Thoth/Hermes. Plutarch in On Isis and Osiris describes some magical acts, such as holding a sleeping child in fire to make him immortal and raising the dead Osiris. So if the Popess is, in virtue of 16th century engravings, the Church, she is also Isis, at least by 1616. Not only that, in the context of the book's purpose, she is an evil magician, and as such suitable company for the Bagatto next to her in the sequence.

On the web, Google Books has the book in searchable form. If you put in "sortilego" a couple of snippets come up. Also "sortilegium" and other forms of the word appear in the index. I can't make out their Latin, but I doubt if it is interesting for our purposes. There is also a French translation, done at the time, as well as a modern English translation of parts of it.

Re: The Popess

#65
hm ...

This popess might be just a printer signet, not related to text or content, perhaps one should first check other works of the same printer, if this or a similar picture is used there, otherwise there's danger to run in the wrong direction.

I found this ...
AUTHOR Delrío, Martín Antonio S. J. (1551 - 1608)
TITLE Disquisitionum magicarum libri sex
URL http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/Visualiseur?D ... UMM-053650
SITE Gallica - Bibliothèque nationale de France
SUBJECT Esoterica
NOTES Dpr of the 1599-1600 Louvain edition (dpr's of the 1608 Lyon edition, the 1612 Lyon edition, and the 1617 Paris edition are also available); downloadable pdf format
... with 3 other links to the work at:
http://www.philological.bham.ac.uk/bibliography/d.html
search for "delr"

German wiki is a little more extended ad gives this as content of the six books
Lib. I. De Magia generatim, & de Naturali, Artificiali, & Praestigiatrice agitur.
Lib. II. De Magia Daemoniaca & eius efficacitate.
Lib. III. De Maleficio & vana observatione.
Lib. IV. De Prophetia, Divinatione, & Coniextatione.
Lib. V. De Iudicis officio & ordine iudiciario in hoc crimine.
Lib. VI. De officio confessarii, ac remediis licitis illicitis.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Anton_Delrio
It says, that the text was never translated, so only something for readers of Latin language.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Venetian engraving of Isis as Popess

#66
mikeh wrote:The Disquisitionum Magicarum Libri Sex by the Jesuit Martino Delrio, first published Louvain 1599-1600, was the second most popular book about witchcraft and sorcery, after the Malleus Maleficarum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Delrio). Many editions have for a frontispiece scenes from Exodus (http://books.google.com/books/about/Dis ... 65wJmBKP4C). But the Venetian edition of 1616 has something different:
Image

I got this from my brother's wife's sister's husband, who has the book. Here is the detail of the engraving at the bottom of the page:

Image


... the Latin inscription around the border is perhaps HINC RELIGIO VERA.
Hello Mike,
thank you for sharing this very interesting engraving!
Huck wrote: This popess might be just a printer signet, not related to text or content
Huck is right: this is the device of the publisher. A google search for "hinc religio vera" (hence the true religion) provides a few pages related to books with this device. For instance, a page about "La piazza universale di tutte le professioni del mondo" by Garzoni provides this description of the publisher's device:

La Chiesa Cattolica: una donna con un triregno benedice con la destra e tiene con la sinistra una cornucopia. Sullo sfondo monumenti della Roma classica e cristiana: Hinc religio vera.

"Catholic Church: a woman wearing a triple crown, blessing with her right hand and holding a cornucopia in her left hand. On the background, monuments of classic and Christian Rome."

Michael Hurst has just written about this and similar engravings on pre-gebelin.blogspot

Re: The Popess

#67
Yes, I see. Oh, well. It makes sense that a Jesuit book would have a Catholic image on its frontispiece, and "Hinc religio vera" certainly means the Roman Catholic Church in that context; and my "pyramids" are just the obelisks of Rome. The book itself, as far as I can tell from descriptions, is totally conventional. So the image I posted is just a typical post-Luther symbol of the Church, which I think co-opted the image of the Popess at that time (since it can't be found in that context earlier) for its own self-representation,

Re: The Popess

#68
A few clarifications from my previous post. First, I want to make clear (after reading Michael's footnote to his May 1 blog entry) that my interest in seeing the card as Isis was not from a belief that the cards were Egyptian, but rather that it seems to me unlikely that de Gebelin was the first to think of an Egyptian interpretation to cards, given the interest in all things Egyptian and especially their "Mysteries", starting with the humanists of Italy of the 1420s--not seeing the cards as Egyptian per se, but as expressing those "mysteries" as part of the prisca theologia perfected in Christianity. In the 16th and 17th century, the cards were already referred to as "hieroglyphs", as Ross has pointed out (http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=94755), although not necessarily suggesting Egypt. Previously in this thread I have given reasons for suspecting such an Egyptian interpretation as early as the Cary Sheet (correlating with a Pope who had his apartment decorated with pictures of Isis and other Egyptian figures), continuing into the Noblet and other French cards. I don't advocate it as the only interpretation of any deck, and not for the card's origin, or for the minchiate and decks which have merely "four papi"; but it seems to me that in Milan and France, at least, the Popess card could have taken on an Egyptian meaning for some audiences. In this context, it seems to me that de Gebelin was probably only the first who had a strong enough desire to argue an Egyptian interpretation (which he did in extreme form!) and who could also get away with putting it in print, given the loosening of censorship in Paris at that time and his own high status (he even became one of the royal censors). On the other hand, censorship in Europe was not so complete that Isis could not have been alluded to clearly elsewhere in those centuries--in Basel, Amsterdam, even Venice--so I am always looking for unambiguous verification of my hypothesis (which I admittedly have not found).

There are still a few things about the image I posted that puzzle me. What about the various markings on her dress that look like hieroglyphics? And what looks like a tail sticking out, which would associate her to the Devil? I am thinking that people in 17th century Venice might have made the same mistake that I did, and concluded from the weird appearance and prominent obelisks/pyramids (vs. small colisseum) that she was indeed Isis, and that there was somothing exotic and devilish inside, or at least Egyptian, a connotation useful for a variety of titles.The motto around the circle would be to disavow such an interpretation, and so protect the publisher from the censors, but some people might not notice or understand it. It could be a way of attracting attention and increasing sales, for this and other books.

It remains true, I think, that Italian 15th century representations of ladies with papal-like tiaras are far from suggesting the Church. I only know of three types. First, of course, are depictions of Pope Joan, in illustrations of Boccaccio. Second is in the Hypnerotomachia, published 1499 Venice, where she is the head priestess in a group of priestesses devoted to Venus (viewtopic.php?f=23&t=385&start=40#p8626). Third are in engravings of the sibyls, pagan prophetesses, 1465-1480 by Baldini, especially the Libyan. SteveM showed us her at viewtopic.php?f=23&t=385#p8275. I discussed her and others at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=917&start=150#p13782.

All of three of these examples are rather exotic. Given that the Popess card would have been familiar to artists at that time, it seems strange that none would use the image to represent the Church in art then, if that is what it meant in the tarot. It is as though the image were then too tainted for it to be suitable for such a purpose.

Another 15th century tiara-lady is the English one that JMD found of Mary as Queen of Heaven, viewtopic.php?f=11&t=295, which Pen posted at the beginning of this thread. (In Italy before the 15th century, there are also such Marys with papal tiaras, and Faith and Mercy as well, as Michael shows.) In England as well, I found a tiara-lady just recently, of the Empress of Rome, in a series of sculptures in the cathedral of Norwich, sometime after 1455. Here is one image, from Black's Medieval narratives of accused queens, 2003.
Image

The Empress of Rome is a legendary Christian Empress in a tale that was popular in the 13th century. I attribute her revival, and her depiction with the papal tiara, to the closening of diplomatic and commercial ties between Milan and London at that time, in particular involving the Sforza and Borromeo families. Since the legend of the Empress of Rome is in certain peculiar ways like the legend of Guglielma then current (that of Pulci and others before him), I attribute the papal headgear in that context to a Milanese connection. For more details see the thread "Visconti Marriage and Betrothal Commemorations", the post at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=917&start=150#p13776.

One last consideration in the 17th century, which I don't think I've mentioned: one title for the Popess card in France was "Pances", a word in Lyonnaise dialect that means "belly". See e.g. http://pfffrrrummmp.blogspot.com/2011/10/la-pances.html); the blogger (SteveM?) interprets this as saying that the Church is too fat. That is possible, but it might also mean, given that she is female, that the Popess is pregnant. In that sense the title fits Isis (pregnant with Horus), the Virgin Mary, and Pope Joan.

Re: An early XV Century Popess

#70
Hi, Marco,
marco wrote:A crypt in Ortelle (Puglia, Southern Italy) contains a fresco which includes what is considered to be an allegory of the Church.
The fresco has been recently restored and dated to 1400-1430.

http://massimonegro.wordpress.com/2011/ ... aresimale/
http://www.salogentis.it/2012/04/17/la- ... i-ortelle/
Image

Beautiful little scene -- and a great Ecclesia image.

How much of the design is identified? Is the woman to the left the Virgin?

Thanks very much for posting it.

Best regards,
Michael

P.S. Ah, yes... I see it identified, lower on the page. Also, other photos of this are online, including a large one at Wikimedia commons. Thanks again for the post.

Image
We are either dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants, or we are just dwarfs.

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