Re: Building a 15th Century divination system

#22
Image


First question: Are we sure about matching up the suits? We're sure that we can equate:
Tiles = Diamonds = Coins
Clovers = Clubs = Batons
Hearts = Hearts = Cups
Pikes = Spades = Swords
This is the standard way to equate the French and Italians suits? Are there variations?

Second Question:
Are there other early sources that might give us another view of matching Suits to Elements or humors?

I really like using the Elements and Humors to describe the personality of the suits. It makes sense to me and I can see how that might have worked. The problem seems to come in deciding WHICH suits match which pair of Element/Humors.

It would be great if we could find something in the cards themselves that might give us a clue to see if the suits were identified with humors in the past. Marco's idea of looking at the SB makes sense. Maybe also the French identifications with characters might match to humors??

I find this fascinating, and would love to have some confidence of matching a humor to a suit. I suppose this match is the best we have at the moment??
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Building a 15th Century divination system

#23
On Aeclectic, Bernice has recently pointed out that this version of Ripa reprents the four "complexions":
http://emblem.libraries.psu.edu/Ripa/Im ... pa015a.htm
http://emblem.libraries.psu.edu/Ripa/Im ... pa015b.htm

In this case, the purse (of coins) is assigned to the Melancholic (and the goat to Sanguine).
robert wrote: I find this fascinating, and would love to have some confidence of matching a humor to a suit. I suppose this match is the best we have at the moment??
What do you mean by "best" here?
I think that swords/choleric and cups/sanguine are good matches. Swords can well represent fight, and cups pleasure (the falcon and the lute are other forms of pleasure).

The other two suits are much more difficult. The point is that the four suits were not originally derived from the four humors, so it is not possible to find a perfect match. But if we accept that swords and cups are ok, we only have the two options we are currently considering:
* coins=phlegmatic & batons=melancholic
* coins=melancholic & batons=phlegmatic

A general difficulty is that it is not clear what batons represent. It is the suit whose symbols are more variables. Clubs, trees, staffs, sceptres. In Sola Busca, I never understood what those "staffs" are.

Marco

Oneiromancy?

#24
I was thinking that another possible approach for "building a 15h Century cartomancy" could be to start from the interpretation of dreams. That form of divination is very ancient and should be well documented. Since dreams can contain anything, it is possible that from there something could be understood of what ancient cartomancy could have been. I don't know anything about the subject, so I cannot be more specific.

This is the wikipedia page about the Oneirocritica by Artemidorus:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneirocritica

Marco

Re: Building a 15th Century divination system

#25
Thomas Nashe recalled stories told to "yong folks" in Suffolk in the 1570s which included "tell what luck eurie one should have by the day of the weeke he was borne on". Nashe thus provides evidence for fortune telling rhymes of this type circulating in Suffolk in the 1570s

You know...Mondays child is fair of face......or something like that.
I think the omens of birthdays is a good place to start.

Then I believe there is a tapestry in Strasbourg c.1430 called the daisy oracle of some twenty people that recalls the game of the type of person a girl would marry- tall and fair, dark and handsome, etc etc tradesman/clergy/sailor etc
..He loves me, he loves me not.....
~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: Building a 15th Century divination system

#26
robert wrote: Are there other early sources that might give us another view of matching Suits to Elements or humors?
On this web page, I have found something relevant.

This passage is from Andrea Vitali's introduction to a book by Gerardo Lonardoni ("La via del sacro - I Simboli dei Tarocchi fra Oriente ed Occidente"):
Nell'opera Bizzarrie Accademiche di Giovan Francesco Loredano, troviamo discorsi e versi che furono letti e recitati presso l'Accademia degli Incogniti, fondata dal Loredano stesso. Fra questi troviamo il discorso Che moralità si può cavare dal giuoco delle carte dove l'autore ricalca quanto già descritto su questo vizio e sulla sua perniciosità.

Al termine egli compie una digressione sui semi delle carte che così descrive: " Si può dire, che nel giuoco delle carte s'intendano le quattro Stagioni dell'anno. Le Spade indicano la primavera, nella quale tutti i Principi muovono l'armi. I Denari figurano l'Estate, nella quale si raccolgono i grani, e l'entrate. Le Coppe ripiene di vino significano l'Autunno. I Bastoni sono simbolo del Verno, perché gli alberi del Verno sono nudi a guisa di Bastoni. Tanto più, che nel verno sono necessari i Bastoni per iscaldarsi"
In the book"Academical Bizarry" ("Bizzarrie Accademiche") by Giovan Francesco Loredano, we find discourses and verses that were read at the Academy of the Unknowns (Accademia degli Incogniti), founded by the same Loredano. Among those we find the discourse "What morality can be found in card playing", were the author says what we have already described about this vice and its dangerousness.

At the end he digresses about the suits that he describes in this way: "We can say that the game of cards represents the four Seasons of the year. Swords represent spring, when all Princes move to war. Coins represent Summer when income is produced after harvesting crops. Cups full of wine represent Autumn. Batons represent Winter, because during Winter trees are without leaves as Batons. Moreover, during winter wood is necessary for heating."


Loredano's book was published in 1655.
Following RAH's diagram:
Image

we have

Swords - Spring - Sanguine
Coins - Summer - Choleric
Cups - Autumn - Melancholic
Batons - Winter - Phlegmatic

Marco

PS: in his introduction, Vitali also quotes the "contemporary historian" Ross Sinclair Caldwell :)

Re: Building a 15th Century divination system

#27
"We can say that the game of cards represents the four Seasons of the year. Swords represent spring, when all Princes move to war. Coins represent Summer when income is produced after harvesting crops. Cups full of wine represent Autumn. Batons represent Winter, because during Winter trees are without leaves as Batons. Moreover, during winter wood is necessary for heating."

Holy moly. It didn't occur to me to look for correspondences with what people DO at different seasons of the year. A whole different take on it for me. Thanks!

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