Dee on the 21st Roman Letter

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Dee on the 21st Roman Letter

Postby R.A. Hendley on 03 Apr 2008, 23:08

.


In Monas Hieroglyphica (1564) John Dee writes:

"It is not by chance that the right-angled Cross -- that is to say, the twenty-first letter of the Roman alphabet, which was considered as being formed by four straight lines -- was taken by the most ancient of the Roman Philosophers to represent the Decad."


The Decad, of course was called by the Pythagoreans, 'Eternity', 'God', 'Cosmos', 'Heaven', 'All', 'All Perfect' - exactly what is being portrayed on the 21st trump. Interesting! (Also considering that some of the late Tarot patterns, namely the Tarot de Marseille, have a definite 'cross-like' theme to the design.)

A little more fertilizer for the flower bed.... ;)


RAH
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Re: Dee on the 21st Roman Letter

Postby jmd on 08 Apr 2008, 03:14

Interesting take, R.A.H..

Quite frankly, when I read the Monas it was without Tarot in mind.

This does lend further thought to also treating the whole figure as a transformation from the 'four-points' (and four lettered) Tetragrammaton to its transformation into Yeheshua by the inclusion of the central Shin, making further iconographic correlation to Christ.

So with this, we have the cross of the 21st letter and its four points vivified by the central 21st Hebrew letter Shin of Christ.
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Re: Dee on the 21st Roman Letter

Postby R.A. Hendley on 08 Apr 2008, 04:49

.

Oh! Yes!!! Excellent point 'jmd'. I completely missed that.

jmd wrote:Interesting take, R.A.H..

Quite frankly, when I read the Monas it was without Tarot in mind.



LOL... Yeah. Tell me about it... I think I need counselling!! :D


Cheers,

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Re: Dee on the 21st Roman Letter

Postby EUGIM on 19 Apr 2008, 10:08

Hi my Dear Bros...
With regard to the Decad I could suggest leave for a moment and see the 1 (As LE MAT) and 10 (As XXI Card ) so we have a link between them I think.
So we have the sacred EIGHT.
(So Templar or Sufi or Lemniscate or... etc .... )
That s why my dearly friend JMD (Fire never end JMD and that as you know All is in All my Brother... )
By the way again I point here my believe of structure of the Tarot of Marseilles:
LE MAT + the others 21 cards / So not 22 Qabbalah Leters connection.
We have one card unnumbered (LE MAT )and a card unnamed XIII
So I believe we have LE MAT not physically "here" but present and XIII here but not named.
(So to name is summon,don t forget European plague ...
When it took place,do you know...

Friendly = Fire = endly ( I hope never end )
Language of the Birds here Bro ?

Eugim
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Re: Dee on the 21st Roman Letter

Postby jmd on 19 Apr 2008, 23:43

Personally, and though accept that the trumps developed to have twenty-one numbered and the Fou (or Mat) not, it is a more modern conception that makes of the last somehow separate from the former.

In early decks, no trump was numbered. Nor named.

If we look at the set with those eyes, we - or at least I - see the twenty-two as a single set, not as twenty-one + one. And of course, once Roman numerals are added, then one remains un-numbered.... and many useful and wonderful exegetical reflections can be made.
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Re: Dee on the 21st Roman Letter

Postby SteveM on 20 Apr 2008, 08:54

EUGIM wrote:
By the way again I point here my believe of structure of the Tarot of Marseilles:
LE MAT + the others 21 cards / So not 22 Qabbalah Leters connection.



A division into 21 trumps and excuse does not break the connection but is yet another parallel that may be drawn between the cards and hebrew letters; the hebrew letters too may be distinguised into several sets, including for example in the legend of the letters, the 21 that made a case before G-d to be first letter of creation/torah; and the one that did not (aleph).

jmd wrote:
Personally, and though accept that the trumps developed to have twenty-one numbered and the Fou (or Mat) not, it is a more modern conception that makes of the last somehow separate from the former.



I don't believe it is a modern development. The Steele sermon c.1500, treats the 21 trumps as a distinct set numbered 1 - 21, drawing a parallel between them and the 21 points of the die as so many steps that lead to hell, with the fool dealt with in a following paragraph and numbered 0.

SteveM
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Re: Dee on the 21st Roman Letter

Postby EUGIM on 01 May 2008, 19:20

Hello Steve M and JMD...
Well for me Tarot de Marseilles is an structure of 78 image cards compound as follows.
1-The entire deck // 78 cards
2-The 22 Majeurs and the 56 Minors
3-The Majeurs: LE MAT + the others 21 // A card unnumbered (LE MAT ) and a card unnamed XIII.
4-The Minors : The honours + the Pips
Honours:Four figures named and unnumbered // 4 groups of the 4 suits
Pips: Four groups of ten numbered but unnamed cards of each suit,with the exception of the Ace card of each suit.

Ace is unnamed and unnumbered
So I see a link between the Ace of the minors and LE MAT and XIII of the majeurs.
That s drives me to the topic about which group was first created.
Having in mind Mamluk deck and that the Arabs conquered Spain in 718 and been there till 1492,and that Arabs conquered also Sicily by barely the same time.
Those were the two places of penetration of Muslim in Europe and they were whom first translated Greek texts specially in Spain.
Cordoba in Spain and Siracusa in Italy were two great centers of teachings.
With regards to Sicily Muslims found there a great treasure of greek text which they saw very close to there thoughts.
Must keep in mind the excelent job done by Emperor Frederick II who in the 12 century continue this work and also found in Naples the first University of Europe,which recieved people of all parts of Europe.

So as a conclusion,I don t see a link with hebrew letters,tarot is full influenced by Muslim teachings in it s origin

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Re: Dee on the 21st Roman Letter

Postby SteveM on 02 May 2008, 12:33

EUGIM wrote:
So as a conclusion,I don t see a link with hebrew letters,tarot is full influenced by Muslim teachings in it s origin

Eugim


They have been linked for several hundred years now at least; and the division of the 22 allegorical figures into 21 + fool does not negate the parallels drawn between tarot and the cabalah by the occultists et al, but adds to them. Many other divisions could be seen to fit no doubt by means of a little exegesis.

I have no doubt too that parallels may be drawn with Sufi mysticism just as occultists have done with cabalistic mysticism. It has already been done in the 19th century 'Sufi' allegory constructed around the tarot The Mystic Rose of the Garden of the King that Blakeley references in his The Mystical Tower of the Tarot. Christian, Jewish and Islamic mysiticism after all have a common bond in a neoplatonic metaphysical basis, and the role for example of erotic poetry in Sufi mysticism is shared in the Christian and Jewish mystical exegesis of the Song of Solomon*; and it is possible to trace the themes of sacred and profane love and of the mystical marriage I think through the sequence of the tarot in several of its variations; or at least, to understand various elements in reference to such (whether or not intended). We may draw parallels with Jewish and Sufi mysticism, but we can also understand it in terms of Christian mystical theology without reference to any other.**

Parallels and interpretation of course are not evidential of a direct influence of such traditions upon the structure or content of the Tarot at its origins.

SteveM

*I am aware that the Song of Solomon is important within Islam too, the more so in relation to Solomon as prophet and the 'prophesy' of Mohammed in 5:16 in the hebrew word Mahamadim meaning "altogether lovely":

5:16 His throat is sweet, yea he is altogether lovely. Such one is my love, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, such one is my love.

5:16 חכ:ו ממתקים ו:כל:ו מחמדים זה דוד:י ו:זה רע:י בנות ירושלם:

(MChMDYM)

**Without denying mutual influences, for example:
http://www.tomblock.com/11shalom/article_solomon.php

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=LaV- ... #PPA545,M1
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot
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Re: Dee on the 21st Roman Letter

Postby EUGIM on 03 May 2008, 20:35

Hello Steve M ...
1-As Gershom Scholem strongly pointed it Qabbalah was an attempt to make Hebrews more "pleasant" to Christian context.
We have an earlier attempt of this with the Gospel of St. John // You surely know Poimandres book of the Corpus Hermeticum.(Add more ? ).
2-The 3 religion (re-ligare) has close link with the Alexandrian School neoplatonism.
The hebrew mind master Michael Psellos translated at 10 century the Corpus Hermeticum,just for an example.
Alberto Magno (an hermetic learned) was the teacher of St. Thomas Aquinus and so on...
3-The link with Tarot Steve,well "that why we are here brother" so to elucidate it...
4-Just for me the numbered structure of the deck "hide" something.
M. Hurst strongly pointed that "sequence convey meaning" and here there is the barely unique point where I m agree with him but on another point of view of course...
As you know we have for example VIIII so not IX /Additive form
Italian deks prior to French conquered of Milan at 1499 haven t name and numbers.Frenchmen re worked all the iconography and as re born gave us the Marseilles deck.
We can t deny popular ground beliefs,so celtic background...
Why Temperance is an angel ?.
At 1499 at France Alchemic were already "drawn" my bon friend,so could may be a link between Temperance and the Source origin of Tarot at France.
Also we have inverted numbered XII pointed IIX and so on...
On another thread is discussing Chosson deck,which has the XII card number inverted.That drives to mind about the position of the card as Andy Pollet pointed.
5-Or why in many decks LE MAT and XIII card have a common way out ( se van para el mismo lado ) Forgive my bad english please man...


PS/Its for me me just an honour that you replay to me,don t mind if you "kill" to me with your posts.
You we will be allways wellcome at my planet.

Have a nice day ! ( I m 47 you know ? )

Eugim
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Re: Dee on the 21st Roman Letter

Postby Yygdrasilian on 12 Nov 2008, 08:41

12 Hanged Man: Crops
21 World: Seasons

III Demeter
In the underworld, where apples fall, Aphrodite seeks her mortal love Adonis, Orpheus plays his Lyre to free Eurydice, Demeter searches for her kidnapped daughter Persephone. As Isis must find Osiris.
There is an echo in the hologram.
Pour us a Cup of Kekeon and learn of immortality.
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