Use of Tarot de Marseille as a divinatory tool ???

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Use of Tarot de Marseille as a divinatory tool ???

Postby EUGIM on 10 Apr 2009, 16:08

Just because I saw the Master Ross on line now,I remember a question he did at ATF,like the title of this topic.

Well Master,Thierry Depaulis in the catalogue "Jeu Tarot et Magie" said that the deck of François Tourcaty was used intentionally with this purpose.
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Re: Use of Tarot de Marseille as a divinatory tool ???

Postby Ross G. R. Caldwell on 10 Apr 2009, 16:27

I have Thierry's catalogue. Where does he say this?

I'm just flipping through it now.

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Re: Use of Tarot de Marseille as a divinatory tool ???

Postby Ross G. R. Caldwell on 10 Apr 2009, 16:35

Ah, I see now. Pp. 137-138

He says the pack comes from the beginning of the 19th century, and has handwritten divinatory meanings on the cards, like "Illness" for the Bateleur. They are unique attributions, which seem to be influenced by an Etteilla-like meaning scheme, but do not agree with his order. He says that Marteau, who owned this Tarot, claimed they belonged to Mlle. Lenormand, but there is no proof of this assertion.

Well that's good, evidence of an adaptation of Tarot de Marseille to divination, writing in the meanings, according to an idiosyncratic scheme.

Thanks for the notice!

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Re: Use of Tarot de Marseille as a divinatory tool ???

Postby EUGIM on 10 Apr 2009, 16:40

Hello Mr. Ross:
At pages 137-138
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Re: Use of Tarot de Marseille as a divinatory tool ???

Postby EUGIM on 10 Apr 2009, 16:57

I just think Eteilla "stealed" in the worst sense possible to understood the change happened in the iconography of Tarot de Marseille,curiosuly at the time of his infamous book.
He used the newest double headed pattern and distorted the pattern of Tarot de Marseille adding reversed titles for the cards,and inaugurate the era of the infamous and fibber concept of "reversed" cards.
All is a very or truest "vomit" for me.
All began as you know with the first of the "Caravan of Majestic Liars" :Court de Gebelin and ended with the worst of all Papus (thanks for his teacher Eliphas Liar Levi.

-So thanks for the barber,we have till now a confusion yet to be clarify
*There is ANY evidences about reversed concept,and may be worth a topic to discuss this point to clarify this once FOR ALL

My best,my Master !

Eugim
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Re: Use of Tarot de Marseille as a divinatory tool ???

Postby EUGIM on 10 Apr 2009, 17:10

Well I think that someone must shoot first,so here you have it:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=127

-Filling my Savinelli Autograph with plenty Syrian Latakia...
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Re: Use of Tarot de Marseille as a divinatory tool ???

Postby Ross G. R. Caldwell on 10 Apr 2009, 23:20

EUGIM wrote:Well I think that someone must shoot first,so here you have it:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=127

-Filling my Savinelli Autograph with plenty Syrian Latakia...


Eugim, please calm down.

By the way, I LOVE Latakia. It is only a small ingredient in the tobaccos I can buy here. I love the Perique, which is grown in Louisiana. They say the word "perique" comes from "per-ick", which is of course "prick", which is the shape of the rolled leaves of tobacco.

But the point of this post is - I don't care how you read the cards. I don't think anybody cares how you read the cards. When I come to you for a card reading, I expect you to pay attention TO ME, - I have no theories, then.

Reversals are as good as any other reading for a good reader. They read the SIGNS. Really good readers use a lot of methods. Palmistry, tea-leaves, astrology, pure clairvoyance - all of them work, when you have a pure heart and you are sure of your gift.

I tbought I was a diviner I read the cards. I cast the yarrow stalks - I even almost admitted the three coin toss.

Then I met a real diviner. He led me into a world where everything was divination. He didn't know how to read the Thoth deck, but he showed me more than I ever thought I could know even in his ignorance;

HE Was a disciple of the works of Carlos Castaneda.

So - if you live in a world of magic and mystery, you know what I am talking about. But if you want to fight in the world of sharp weapons like logic and facts, then be prepared - you HAVE TO KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. It's a small and really unimportant world, but it is a world that may help some people avoid the heartbreak of learning that esoteric Tarot is bullshit.

I think there is something you might know that you can share. But you have to be able to share it.

Ross
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Re: Use of Tarot de Marseille as a divinatory tool ???

Postby EUGIM on 11 Apr 2009, 00:00

Well...
WoW !!!

1-Regarding pipe tobacco I am smoking KK number 2,the more decent Latakia blend I can find here.
Perique gives to me fever,flu (and I m not lying ).But the way how this type of tobacco is cured is very interesting.Americans learned how to from the Indians.The name comes from the first frenchman who exploited it.
2-I never deny Tarot de Marseille as divinatory tool I only remarked the distortion Eteilla did.
Reversed cards has any historical foundation prior to Eteilla.
3-For this I gave the example of Tourcaty as the use of Tarot de Marseille as divinatory tool.
4-I don t deny esoteric sources about tarot.
Even I believe it has a neoplatonic source origin which comes from Alexandria School.
Of course I can t prove this,is just my belief.
5-Regarding this "then be prepared - you HAVE TO KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT"
Yes I am agree with you,but specifically about what ?
So once you answer to me I will see if I can answer to you.
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Re: Use of Tarot de Marseille as a divinatory tool ???

Postby jmd on 11 Apr 2009, 00:56

Whether we appreciate it or not, De Gebelin put the tarot back into the limelight, and as a consequence of his views (no matter how inaccurate) enabled his successors to include tarot as part and parcel of the Western Esoteric Traditions.

Etteilla, I thought, first wrote a book on reading non-tarot playing cards. Yet, influenced by De Gebelin's volume, re-wrote it some years later to include tarot - and as I understand it initially used what we now call the 'Marseille' (or perhaps a Besançon)... and only later 'rectified' the imagery to what became the 19th C. popular decks (Etteilla I, II and III).

So the 'Tarot de Marseille as divinatory tool' dates at least to Etteilla with his Maniere de se récréer avec le jeu de cartes nommées Tarots (translated title retaining its ambiguity: A manner of self recreation with a game of cards named Tarots). See tarotpedia entry.
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Re: Use of Tarot de Marseille as a divinatory tool ???

Postby EUGIM on 11 Apr 2009, 01:04

JMD,I know that Eteilla wrote this book,but he thanks to Gebelin placed the Egyptian origin of Tarot as you know well.
So that is why I remark he distorted the origin and the iconography.
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