Re: Use of Tarot de Marseille as a divinatory tool ???

#41
R.A. Hendley wrote:Well, if we accept the idea of the trump cycle as a 'moral allegory', then the authority and basis of this moral 'dogma' is simply the trumps themselves. We see three clear 'teachings' here - courage, fairness, and moderation. Fairly strait forward.
Thanks R.A., great graphic.
Mary Greer wrote:Just this one thought brings up so many issues. The first is 'who is defines what's moral?' I've had/seen a few readings in which the reader got very preachy about what was the 'right' thing to do, based on that reader's own extremely narrow sense of the morality implied within a card.
The main challenge here is to explain myself without looking like an extremist. :-)

Mary, I suspect that your question, as legitimate and common as it is, may be founded on a false conundrum. This links contains a list of Human Universals, also know as epigenetic rules. Those are human traits consistently shared by all cultures in all countries in the world.

http://condor.depaul.edu/~mfiddler/hyph ... nivers.htm

Not only “distinguishing right and wrong”, “good and bad distinguished”, “sanctions for crimes against the collectivity” or “self is responsible” are common concepts shared by all cultures in the planet, but for those who may argue that the notions of right or wrong may vary from culture to culture, we can also see how the list contains several traits alluding to conducts we define as moral, like “rape proscribed” and the “ability to overcome some fears” or objected as immoral, like “reciprocity, negative (revenge, retaliation)” and “incest between mother and son unthinkable or tabooed”, which are also shared by all cultures in the world.

Who says what is moral? We do, at an individual level, on a daily basis. But our moral choices aren’t individually acquired nor are they unique. They conform with patterns shared by the society at large, and as the human universal shows, by the world at large. Morality is not a mechanism for promoting judgement and instilling shame but a set of simple tools for us to function . In terms of the tarot, I know of no culture that praises cowardice, celebrates injustice and rejoices in intemperance. No culture I am aware of trust imprudence, dismiss hope or punishes charity. The problem is not in our adherence or rejections to these principles, but in what we do with them in the context of a reading. There is an enormous distance between reminding someone to face the reversals of fortune with Strength and telling someone “you should pack your bags and leave that SOB”. It is not about telling people which actions undertake in their lives, but about reminding them that there is a bottom line in terms of what we should expect from themselves. (Here is, BTW, where I see readings being closer to homiletics than to psychology).

In other words, our insistence on stating that “no one can tell us what is right or wrong” is somehow fallacious because our default sense ‘social equilibrium’ tends to be in agreement with those who share our cultural space, and more likely than not, also with the world at large.

I will reply to your other points tomorrow.

Thanks,

EE
What’s honeymoon salad? Lettuce alone
Don’t look now, mayonnaise is dressing!

Re: Use of Tarot de Marseille as a divinatory tool ???

#42
EnriqueEnriquez wrote:Lets say you are that young man standing between two women in Lamoreux. You don’t know which one to choose, so you ask Cupid for advice and Cupid whispers in your ear: “do the beautiful thing”. Who would you choose? Virtue or Vice?
I don't think it would be possible to choose except by sensing into truth/beauty in the moment. It's not an abstract principle. This is especially so if you conceptualize the choice more as Edgar Wind did when he spoke of Amore celeste e umano, or of Aphrodite Urania and Aphrodite Pandemos (see Pagan Mysteries in the Renaissance). Living as I do, in a magical universe, I find that when the gods whisper in my ear, that I can trust that the answer will be apparent if I quiet myself and listen with my inner senses. I offer people the opportunity to do just that in the temenos of the reading time/space. In fact, I created an end process for the reading that I call the Breakthrough Process that helps the person create their own guidelines for recognizing elements/situations in daily life that align with their highest goals. It's too long to go into here but is in Tarot for Your Self and other works by me.

Re: Use of Tarot de Marseille as a divinatory tool ???

#43
R.A. Hendley wrote:We see three clear 'teachings' here - courage, fairness, and moderation. . . . like the tree of life, we can easily come up with methods that use this 'semi-historical' approach to divining. Say for example connecting the trumps to Plato's three souls and his ideas on which soul rules which virtue.
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I can see that you've evolved a very elegant and well-thought-out system, however don't each of the trumps have their beneficial and problematic sides?

Re: Use of Tarot de Marseille as a divinatory tool ???

#44
EnriqueEnriquez wrote:Morality is not a mechanism for promoting judgement and instilling shame but a set of simple tools for us to function . In terms of the tarot, I know of no culture that praises cowardice, celebrates injustice and rejoices in intemperance. No culture I am aware of trust imprudence, dismiss hope or punishes charity.
Can you always tell the difference between imprudence and the willingness to take risks? Where is the charity in the religion that believes you "should not suffer a witch to live"? It is surprising how different people's "bottom lines" actually are. It's one reason why I like watching "Wife Swap" on TV (at least before it became so formulaic).

If the bottom line was always so simple, then wouldn't life be a lot more clear cut? Telling someone to face their reversals of fortune with Strength may be perfect in one case, but mean absolutely nothing to someone else. I try to help them find their own clues in the cards as to exactly where and how to do this.

Mary

Re: Use of Tarot de Marseille as a divinatory tool ???

#45
Mary Greer wrote:
I can see that you've evolved a very elegant and well-thought-out system, however don't each of the trumps have their beneficial and problematic sides?

So I've been told, but judging by what I see, the intent of the cycle is showing some cards clearly positive, and some negative, and some in between. Saying a card can be interpreted in any way, opens the possibility of the card being able to represent just about anything or everything, and saying that a card means everything is just another way of saying the card doesn't really mean anything.

I've found all one usually needs to know to answer a querent's question is -
  • a card's dignity (how good or bad it is), and
  • whether or not the card is active or passive.
In fact, worrying too much about the specific meaning of the card can be a hinderance.

It is like one of those 'on-line' maps. You need to start out with a broad overview, then focus down to find the neighborhood, then focus down more to find the street. If you start 'focused down' on specifics from the start without getting a general overview, you'll have a heck of a time finding where you're going. :)
When a clock is hungry, it goes back four seconds.

Re: Use of Tarot de Marseille as a divinatory tool ???

#46
Mary,

Thanks for fueling this interesting discussion.
Mary Greer wrote: It does bring up what may be a difference between the two decks and the preferences of those who read with them.

Mary
OK but, for the record, there is no tradition I am aware of of reading the cards that way, because there is not even consensus in regard of seeing the trump cycle as a christian morality tale. So, no one can say that the Tarot de Marseille have been read this way from the dawn of time. What I am suggesting is that there may be a more ‘historically conscious’ way of reading the Tarot de Marseille in which the acknowledgement of such moral layer may be a key component.

Mary Greer wrote:As to emotion—well, I spent several years reading everything I could in the field of emotion. I also ran an experiment with over 80 respondents—asking them to choose an emotion (from a list of around 90) to go with each card of the 78 cards of the RWS deck. The amount of agreement (either the exact word or an emotional synonym) was astonishing, pointing to the fact that people perceive highly predictable emotional states for each card—in that deck.
Your research in connecting/attributing emotions to the cards sounds fascinating. Have you published that data somewhere? I find that very useful. My experience tends to be very similar. People have stereotyped reactions to the same cards: positive reactions to these cars we could define as ‘good’ and negative reactions to these cards we define as ‘bad’. These reactions tend to be pretty consistent. The only exception to that rule are those clients who are in denial, and will ‘see’ in the cards the very story they came to be told by the reader, disregarding if that is what the reader sees in the cards or not. But if someone sees La Roue de Fortune as ‘keeping my balance so I never fall’, that doesn’t implies that the meaning of the card as a depiction of the impermanence of Fortune changes (if anything, that would indicate to me that such person is one of the beast in the wheel!). The other thing I have found out is that when a person has a negative reaction to a card that is consistent with the image depicted, as in reacting negatively to Le Diable or Le Pendu, and you try to bring about a positive spin on the image, they take it as a cognitive dissonance. More often than not, they react to these positive comments with some sort of sarcasm and say things like “yeah, I know, Death doesn’t means Death” when in truth the image is impacting their unconscious in a way that unequivocally represents Death. (This ties up with the fact that cliches has no healing power, and when one says that Death means a ‘transformation’ the information only impacts the client at a superficial intellectual level). On the other hand, when our words match the feelings elicited by the image, the response is stronger, more likely to bring about a transformative reaction.

If you look at it, what you are saying, your findings, are totally consistent with R.A. system and with an idea that seem to be implicit in the Tarot de Marseille: there are things to fear in this life and virtues that could help us cope with them. Treason is not good no matter how much we spin it. No one wants to be hanging upside down. In my experience, acknowledging this elicits strong emotional responses. Ignoring it while pretending to sanitize the image elicits an intellectual, theoretical, response that is less likely to reflect the person’s reality and therefore less likely to be useful. The issue is not so much about twisting the meaning of the cards to make people feel OK with them but to provide the proper ‘antidote’ for the client’s misfortune. Such an antidote is presented in the Tarot de Marseille cycle as a morality tale. The design is quite elegant and well rounded.

Mary Greer wrote:Can you always tell the difference between imprudence and the willingness to take risks?
Of course there is a difference. Irresponsibility and courage aren’t the same thing. I can see the difference and so can you. :D

Mary Greer wrote:Telling someone to face their reversals of fortune with Strength may be perfect in one case, but mean absolutely nothing to someone else.
A message about Strength would be always relevant if the person got the La Force and irrelevant if she didn’t get that card, for one of the basic assumptions of the tarot’s illusion is that you get the cards you are mean to get. Any cards that ends up on the table is given immediate credence by the client and we -all readers- build our message on that credence.

Now, what I am trying to say is that, if the person got La Force, my reading will be about preparing her to be strong when the time comes. In other words, it will be a homily on fortitude. Such a reading always operates at a metaphysical -as in philosophical- level. I don’t -I can’t- predict what is going to happen in their lives but I will predict that they will be strong, while implanting the necessary suggestions for them to access that strength when needed.

I see the readers as a guy sitting at a crossroad. From where he is sitting he can tell where the client came from, he can tell the client where she is standing now and he can tell the client were any of these roads lead. But for the reader to be able to tell if the client is going in the right path the client must knows where she is going in the first place.


Thanks,

EE
What’s honeymoon salad? Lettuce alone
Don’t look now, mayonnaise is dressing!

Re: Use of Tarot de Marseille as a divinatory tool ???

#47
R.A. Hendley wrote:
I've found all one usually needs to know to answer a querent's question is -
  • a card's dignity (how good or bad it is), and
  • whether or not the card is active or passive.
In fact, worrying too much about the specific meaning of the card can be a hinderance.
Thanks for that. It is very useful.

In fact I think that two of the most useful coordinates to read tarots are: active-passive and expansion-contraction.


Best,


EE
What’s honeymoon salad? Lettuce alone
Don’t look now, mayonnaise is dressing!

More Speculative Fun for the Family!

#48
.



Here's one guy's approach (moi :-h ) to determining what's passive and what's active!



Image




Maybe not suitable to everyone's approach to reading. As for myself, I 'read' for fun really, usually at parties or pubs, and don't take it too seriously. I know of few ways better to get a herd of women over to my table than whippin' out my....

TAROT DECK!

I bet you thought I was gonna say something else, didn't you! =)) Shame on you, horn-dogs! :o3




EnriqueEnriquez wrote:
Thanks for that. It is very useful.

In fact I think that two of the most useful coordinates to read tarots are: active-passive and expansion-contraction.

:-? Expansion-contraction? Tell us more.
When a clock is hungry, it goes back four seconds.

Re: Use of Tarot de Marseille as a divinatory tool ???

#49
Hi Enrique,
EnriqueEnriquez wrote:Lets say you are that young man standing between two women in Lamoreux. You don’t know which one to choose, so you ask Cupid for advice and Cupid whispers in your ear: “do the beautiful thing”. Who would you choose? Virtue or Vice?
I considered avoiding answering this question because my take on this card is so different in that I don't see it as a choice between Virtue or Vice. I know it is interpreted in that way by many people, but this is way at the back of my mind as an optional meaning.

For me, this card represents the stage of life when one chooses one's mate—a very important decision that marks the end of childhood. That an important commitment is being made is signified by the fact that a third person has been brought into the picture—the woman on the left. I see her as a mature woman of stature, dignity and accomplishments (the wreath of laurel leaves); and as such, I can interpret this figure in three ways: 1. As a mother. If she is the mother of the young woman in the flower of life (flower wreath), she is introducing him and he is declaring his love and perhaps asking for her hand. If she is the mother of the young man (more likely since she is next to him), he is introducing her as the woman he has chosen to commit to and who will bear his children. This is the turning point when he leaves his mother and his natal family to begin adult life with adult responsibilities. 2. As a woman of stature officiating at a marriage ceremony which would relate it to an earlier, matriarchal society, and finally 3. As a personification of Mother Nature and the imperative to procreate.

Given a different situation, I can interpret it as a card of choice between friends, business partners, etc., but it is not likely that I would interpret it as a choice between Virtue and Vice or Good and Evil. I am just not likely to paint things in such starkly black and white terms.

As an aside: Color symbolism does add a fascinating layer of meaning to the images, and my quick interpretations here, are an example of Maxwell's kind of interpretations. Just for fun, one could see the colors of the Jean Noblet card this way: The Lover in this card wears a tunic that is primarily Light Blue, the color of emotion, love & longing, with a wide hem of passionate, active Red in the genital area and over his heart, but his emotions and passions are girded at the waist with Golden Yellow of intelligence also guiding his speech (verbal commitment). Both women have prominent Dark Blue (spiritual development) areas on their sleeves . Light blue of the emotions and desire and longing modestly lines the young woman's cloak, but it has moved up to the older woman's bodice, because her desire is for the happiness of the young couple. The young couple stands on Green (fertile) ground, but the green has moved to the back of the older woman signifying that the fertile stage of life is behind her. Otherwise she remains a vibrant woman whose clothing shows a large portion of Yellow intelligence, a streak of Fleshy sensuosity (always a good thing), and she remains actively and passionately (Red) engaged in life. The young woman displays passionate Red, governed by the Golden Yellow of intelligence on her bodice. Cupid in this card is blinded(as we all are) to the imperfections of his beloved by Red (passion) and his head is Lt Blue (emotions of love and longing) His Fleshy, sensuous body lies against a field of White (color of purity or the Divine) showing that love is the pure/Divine agent of life which is fed by Golden Yellow intelligence (the mind) at the top, and expresses through the emotions (pointy Light Blue rays). In this card a Red flame of passion issues from his divinity (wing). I'll quit now. #:-sHope I haven't bored you.

Re: Use of Tarot de Marseille as a divinatory tool ???

#50
EnriqueEnriquez wrote:Mary,

Thanks for fueling this interesting discussion.
I wrote an in-depth response and somehow hit a key stroke (Enter?) that made it all disappear. It's happened a couple of times (only on this forum) and I can't seem to get the text back. I don't have more time right now but will try to answer again later.

Is there a place where partly written responses are saved?

Mary

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