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Re: Welcome

Postby Terrapinflyer on 04 Apr 2014, 17:37

Thank you for having me. It is actually hard to post, as I seem to find that one of you erudite ladies or gentlemen have already said what I might like to state or inquire. The reading is always enriching, of course.
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Re: Welcome

Postby Cláudio on 30 Jun 2016, 16:01

Oh gods, thousand apologies for all members since I have disappeared for three years from the Forum. x_x
Unfortunately, I had a lot of particular problems in the meantime, but now many of them are already solved so that little by little I'm returning to my studies about the tarot.
To be honest, I didn't have any time to access your information because my life was chaotic as I aforementioned. I will read it carefully, Huck, but I believe that from that time a lot has been updated, wasn't it ?

Thank you.
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Favorite Deck: Thoth Tarot by Crowley & Harris

Re: Welcome

Postby Huck on 30 Jun 2016, 20:13

... :-) ... well, I've to remember ...

Huck wrote:welcome Claudio,

a good start to the recent new discoveries is the "local search engine" of the forum (see menu). The keyword for the oldest use of the word "Trionfi" is now since January 2012 "Giusto Giusto", cause the man "Giusto Giusto" presented a worthwhile Trionfi deck (from Florence) to Sigismondo Malatesta at September 16, 1440.
So suddenly Florence has now the oldest document ... this new document is accompanied by the researches of Franco Pratesi, who has its focus on development in Florence ... so "Pratesi" is a keyword.

Well, this is really much material. There are now more than 100 Trionfi documents between 1440 and 1462, 2 years ago it were about 35. The new documents come mostly from traders and the decks are much lower in the price than those in the earlier available documents. However, they are higher than the cheapest decks (normal playing cards).

We have for ...

"cheapest decks": about 1 Florentine Soldi

"cheapest Trionfi decks": about 9 Florentine Soldi, known for the first time in 1449

"cheapest Trionfi deck from the earlier documents": 20 Florentine Soldi, for the first time noted 1442 as sold by a Bolognese merchant in Ferrara (all other decks were much more expensive in Ferrara)

1 Florentine Soldi has 12 Denari, 20 Soldi are a Florentine Lira; 4 Florentine Lira are 1 ducat, but there are different ducats, some have about 5 Lira.

9 Soldi is still rather much for the income of a humble worker ... but a middle class income could reach such a noble item.

There are in the moment not much Trionfi documents from the period 1440-49, there are much more for 1450-59, maybe the relationship is about 1:10

Most of the documents are from the business of two "silk dealers" (keyword). The documents from these go from 1431 till 1460. One list consists of sales. Another sort of lists, which is the larger part, are decks, which were acquired by the silk dealers from various producers ... so there we get the names of producers. The Trionfi deck notes are embedded in a much greater part with other forms of playing cards, totally maybe 7-10.000 decks.

Another trader was Bartholomeo Seragli (1455-58), who had a specific artist "Filippo di Marco" working for him. These are very expensive decks, which are comparable to the Ferrara products.

Another trader was the Puri family, active 1447-49 (no Trionfi decks).

The Lapini family traded cards from 1415-22 and between 1453-55 (in the latter phase with Trionfi decks.

Further there are with very few documents (occasionally only 1) and some new articles to a very early trade in Arezzo (since 1400), but with only one late Trionfi note.

Further there are documents from the Roman custom register, which promise in near future a lot of further data. For the moment we only know of 8 Triunfi decks in 1453, imported by Giovanni of Pistoia, and then documents since 1463 (one relates to an import of 309 Triunfi decks in 1463).

The "309" is especially remarkable, as earlier known deals had maximal 12 Trionfi decks and in one case 13 decks. Another deal from Florence to Venice (1462) delivered 96 decks. So one might consider, that around 1462/63 there is some change in either production or trade, which made then high-number-deals possible.

Generally it looks from the current material, as if there was a Trionfi card production peak between 1452-1455, possibly the period after 1462/63 presents the begin of a new peak.

Franco Pratesi's major list for the silk dealers (acquire list) gives a good view, what you might expect:

Well, this all rather complicated. If you've specific questions, please ask.

In the development happened the publication of an article of Arnold Esch, who once had been the chief of the Roman custom register (as above mentioned). By this article we got 107 Trionfi notes from the period 1453-1465, this was a little bit more than we had before for the period 1440-1462.

Otherwise the development took a pause, cause Franco Pratesi had focussed on Minchiate in 18th/19th century mainly for a longer period. Much progress in this theme.

I think, that only 2 or 3 new early Trionfi notes appeared after the Esch article. Franco found 2 Trionfi playing punishments in the year 1444, that was a new category of Trionfi documents, otherwise unknown. And this were very early documents, there are not much, which are older.

Germini is now mentioned in 1506 for the first time, earlier it was noted for the first time in 1517 and 1519.

For the moment the interest is high for (possible) playing card developments before the year 1377.
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