Re: The monkey's turban

#11
Is there any merit in considering that this Cary-Yale sheet came from somewhere other than Italy or France?
The reason I ask is this....
They were probably Italian, as the subjects correspond closely to those of the surviving Italian woodcuts in Ravenna. In 1441, however, the woodcutters and playing-card makers asked the Venetian Council for protection from foreign imports, which were ruining their trade.
They were speaking about Holy pictures- not the Cary-Yale sheet. 1430-1450.
Now on the Cary Yale sheet the Devil looks Swiss and the Females look Flemish and the Magician looks Venetian.
These cards appear no longer to be available in general. I mean they are not the standard images.
They stopped this production it would appear. They are particularly good woodcuts for playing cards and I would imagine like German cards, they would have had appeal. They appear not to have been given this opportunity- so why?
~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: The monkey's turban

#12
Lorredan wrote:Is there any merit in considering that this Cary-Yale sheet came from somewhere other than Italy or France?
The reason I ask is this....
They were probably Italian, as the subjects correspond closely to those of the surviving Italian woodcuts in Ravenna. In 1441, however, the woodcutters and playing-card makers asked the Venetian Council for protection from foreign imports, which were ruining their trade.
They were speaking about Holy pictures- not the Cary-Yale sheet. 1430-1450.
Now on the Cary Yale sheet the Devil looks Swiss and the Females look Flemish and the Magician looks Venetian.
These cards appear no longer to be available in general. I mean they are not the standard images.
They stopped this production it would appear. They are particularly good woodcuts for playing cards and I would imagine like German cards, they would have had appeal. They appear not to have been given this opportunity- so why?
~Lorredan
Well, that's the question isn't it?

I suspect one of the reasons that Ross started this question is because we are always trying to figure out the Cary Sheet's place in tarot history. It has some very interesting iconography which may help us discover its origin.

You have to take it in context too. What IS the Cary Sheet? There can be little doubt of its direct relationship with the Tarot de Marseille, too many of the cards have direct correspondences. But if it is "based" on a Tarot de Marseille, then why doesn't it have titles or numbers? This is part of my pet theory that the Tarot de Marseille didn't have titles or numbers to begin with, otherwise, you'd have to say that whoever created the Cary Sheet removed them, which, in my opinion, seems unlikely; if they were for foreign import, it would have been easier to translate the titles. Does this mean that the sheet is older than the Tarot de Marseille? Perhaps. There are a LOT of people out there that treat the Tarot de Marseille like a religious text, and base their theories on it being the "ur-tarot", so there is a lot of resistance to the idea that it might actually not be the oldest, and may not even be of French origin! Add to this the cards Sforza Castle World card, and you have to consider that the titles were a later addition.

So if this is true, when were the titles added to the Tarot de Marseille? To me, it makes sense that it would happen when the Tarot de Marseille was imported into France. So, we have to ask, if the Tarot de Marseille isn't French, and the Cary Sheet isn't French, then where did they come from?

We've been trying to figure this out for years. I think one of the biggest clues is the Devil, which seems to me to be connected to the iconography of the Krampus famous from the Alps area. However, I was able to find a similar devil with the basket on his back from a 15th century French manuscript, so France can't be ruled out after all. I've not found a similar devil in Italian art, so maybe that lessens Italy's claim.

I think we need an authority on costumes of the period, they might be able to give us some help. We've discussed shoes, and the slited sleeves, and I don't think we are any further along. It would be great to find something that can help us date the time and location of origin, but as far as I know, it's still a huge, REAL tarot mystery!
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: The monkey's turban

#13
Thanks Robert.
Well I suppose the logical things have been done? Like for example Italian paper imperial size was larger than anywhere else and one of the reasons it was liked was because there would not have to be joining for larger works.
The world card has a number so then it would appear it is not of the same deck.
I think the crozier is a possible dating- I think I said that elsewhere. I also think I have not seen Temperance from chalice into cup. It looks more Catholic than other Tarot de Marseille cards and I cannot explain exactly why I say that. Perhaps it is because it looks like it is going to be embellished to look pseudo handpainted. Some very early Holy pictures were dusted with gold and silver for the upward market. There is not any Intials on the Chariot.
In all it is a mystery and I will ponder more upon it. Right at the moment I am looking for images of armored Strength with a Lion.
I love mysteries.
~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: The monkey's turban

#14
Well there are at least three different children of the planet hausbuch pictures showing magicians and monkeys, so.
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...........

A knowledgeable friend who rarely posts here asks, Why would you think that the monkey is wearing a current fashion? A monkey could be wearing an ancient costume, for effect. The magician has his pointy shoes but we don't know if the artist is painting current fashion, or something earlier. The Cloisters deck exemplifies depiction of archaic fashion on a very early deck of cards.

Just like, we can't automatically date a contemporary movie by what the actors are wearing. All you can do is establish the earliest horizon. The quality of film, cinematic conventions, style, sound quality are more direct clues to the real date. Film historians can tell a lot, just as art historians can tell a lot about printed images.

Based on the other pictures, it seems like it ought to be a monkey, but the style and quality of artwork is more important for dating than the question of whether the monkey is wearing the most up-to-date fashion.

Images from this thread viewtopic.php?f=23&t=384&start=10

Re: The monkey's turban

#16
debra wrote:
Lorredan wrote: The world card has a number so then it would appear it is not of the same deck.
I'm confused, which World card has a number, in a group of cards unnumbered?
The Sforza Castle World card has a number. It's oddly placed above the image as there is not the usual areas for title and numbers on the card. I personally believe it is "transitional".

Image


Sfoza Castle and Dodal
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: The monkey's turban

#17
debra wrote: A knowledgeable friend who rarely posts here asks, Why would you think that the monkey is wearing a current fashion? A monkey could be wearing an ancient costume, for effect. The magician has his pointy shoes but we don't know if the artist is painting current fashion, or something earlier. The Cloisters deck exemplifies depiction of archaic fashion on a very early deck of cards.

Just like, we can't automatically date a contemporary movie by what the actors are wearing. All you can do is establish the earliest horizon. The quality of film, cinematic conventions, style, sound quality are more direct clues to the real date. Film historians can tell a lot, just as art historians can tell a lot about printed images.

Based on the other pictures, it seems like it ought to be a monkey, but the style and quality of artwork is more important for dating than the question of whether the monkey is wearing the most up-to-date fashion.
I generally agree with your friend, that's the same arguement that I have been making in the Pope thread, the images may have historical reference rather than contemporary.

On the other hand, using your analogy of film, when watching an 18th century British period drama, we can usually find enough in the costume and setting, and style, to say... English, 18th century, if we could do that, I do think it would be helpful in understanding the Cary Sheet. There may very well be a clue in the iconography that helps us establish the date and location of origin. It can also help eliminate, if the characters are wearing 18th Century costume, it's pretty much impossible to say that it is 16th century, as the costumes hadn't been invented yet, so that avenue can prove helpful as well.

I'm sure we'd all welcome information from you, or your erstwhile friend, that would help narrow down the time and place of origin; in my opinion, it's better to explore what we have until further developments arise, rather than just leaving it as a great mystery.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

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