JEAN DODAL / LE PAPE card

#1
Just for me always seems as if there is a third figure at the extreme right,depicted with an arm that suddenly "enter" into the card.
That is because I think that the hand of the right monk is placed as the three fingers show at extreme below left,just close to the E letter of the card name.
Also there is a very odd "skin coloured bult aside this monk,which I really don t understand what is it.
http://www.tarot-history.com/Jean-Dodal ... pe-web.jpg

1-As far as I know only at Jean Dodal deck the third hand is clearly shown.
2-The point is why ? / Who is him ?
May be he is not a monk.
3- Also is seems as if the Pope is blessing him so not the others 2 monks.
For me is clear he is not look towards them.

My best,

eugim
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

Re: JEAN DODAL / LE PAPE card

#2
Hi Eugim,

This has been discussed a lot on AT, (and of course, there is the current discussion going on there as well). If you do a search on AT for "Mother's Arm" you'll find lots of comments about it.

VeniceBard is a huge supporter of there being a dismembered arm in the bottom right hand side, and I think he's the one who calls it the "Mother's Arm", I'm not sure if he invented the name.

I don't believe it is an arm, but I can see how it can look that way. It's easy to see it if you want to, but the question becomes "Why would it be there?", and "Does it exist in other decks?", and "Does it exist on earlier decks?".

I look to the Vieville and Noblet when in doubt to see what they would say. So let's take a look.

Dodal, Noblet, Vieville
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Pay close attention to the Noblet, we can see that the figure on the right has both hands raised before the pope. We can also see that there is a red section that shows the figure's elbow. Now with that in mind, when I look at the Dodal I can see the hand in the correct position, and I can see the area to the left which was once the elbow. In other words, I'd say that the Noblet and Dodal are probably based on the same basic iconography there, and that the hand is actually part of the figure's not a dismembered hand floating out of nowhere or attached to a figure not shown inthe card.

Checking the Vieville, I can also see hands raised to the pope, and no sign of the "mother's arm".

So I have something that might be an arm on the Dodal, but when I check it to earlier (and related) decks, there is no trace of it, and in fact, the hand can be better explained as shown on the Noblet. I'd even go as far as to say that, looking at the Dodal again, the figure on the left may actually also match the Noblet. It's hard to tell by the crappy line art and coloring, but I can see the upraised left and right hand, just as on the Noblet.

Later decks, like many Tarot de Marseille II, show the left arm of the right figure going downward. I think there was generally a LOT of confusion over the arms on the Tarot de Marseille decks, but earlier decks didn't have the ambiguity.

So... my vote... No. It's not an arm. But then again, I don't believe in the Penis on the Bateleur, or the Penis on the Popess, or the fishtails on the Cary Sheet. :)
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: JEAN DODAL / LE PAPE card

#3
I agree... I do not think that the Noblet, Dodal, Payen, Conver, Grimaud or indeed the other TdMs intended even the ambiguity that can be seen by shifting one's attention on some of those decks. Personally, I think it is simply the hands in roughly prayerful attitude and the back of the cloth that makes it appear somewhat as though a third arm is emerging from the right of the card (fine in a reading situation, but not as card as sought to be understood as is).

This is of course totally different in the Milanese Dotti, in which four individuals are present:

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association.tarotstudies.org

Re: JEAN DODAL / LE PAPE card

#5
And what would be doing a skin coloured form beside the right monk ?
What it s means ? / If nothing ... / So why Dodal left there ?
He had surely few space to sketched (before engrave it ) the image concept of the card,so why leave unnecessary elements that confuse the overall ? / Or if not at less disturb ?
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

Re: JEAN DODAL / LE PAPE card

#6
EUGIM wrote:And what would be doing a skin coloured form beside the right monk ?
What it s means ? / If nothing ... / So why Dodal left there ?
I would say that in this case the skin colored area to the left of the right monk is his elbow as shown on the Noblet. Personally, I don't know that *I* would have colored it that way, but there is odd coloring all over the place in these decks, and it changes between decks, and even between decks from the same cardmaker... so I don't give color much credence.
EUGIM wrote:He had surely few space to sketched (before engrave it ) the image concept of the card,so why leave unnecessary elements that confuse the overall ? / Or if not at less disturb ?
Dodal is sloppy. I'm not surprised at all. At least he has a hand, better off than the King of Batons! ;)
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: JEAN DODAL / LE PAPE card

#7
Well my Dear Robert...
I don t want to go ahead myself.I already said what my eyes "believe".
So I determined to directly ask by e mail to Flornoy about if he see a third hand or not as a restorer he was of Dodal deck,and the "odd" bomb also...
If he answer to me,of course I will copy here,my friend.

My best as ever...

eugim
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

Re: JEAN DODAL / LE PAPE card

#8
I clearly see the poorly drawn elbow on the Dodal monk, showing his hand to be in prayer position, as on the Noblet. The coloring is what confuses the image.

I think the real question is, why doesn't the left-side monk on the Noblet have his hands together. Un-pious swine!!

(If you look at the Noblet right monk, then the left monk, then the right monk, then the left monk, back and forth real fast, it looks like they are applauding the Pope. :lol: )


RaH
When a clock is hungry, it goes back four seconds.

Re: JEAN DODAL / LE PAPE card

#9
EUGIM wrote:Well my Dear Robert...
I don t want to go ahead myself.I already said what my eyes "believe".
So I determined to directly ask by e mail to Flornoy about if he see a third hand or not as a restorer he was of Dodal deck,and the "odd" bomb also...
If he answer to me,of course I will copy here,my friend.

My best as ever...

eugim
Hi Eugim,

While I greatly admire the work of Jean-Claude Flornoy, and consider him a dear friend (as I'm sure you know, he asked me to design the box for the Noblet, as well as the cover for his book), he and I disagree on many aspects of tarot history itself. I'm not sure what he will say in this case, but his opinion needs to be recognized as "one more" opinion on this subject, and not necessarily "authoritative". For instance, Jean-Claude argues that it is a bear on the Noblet Strength card, and the reason he has given for this is that Lions were unknown to Noblet. I find that ridiculous, and obviously a Lion appears on the World card. He is a man with many unusual and interesting opinions on tarot, but I believe he would be the first to tell you he is an artist and a craftsman, rather than a tarot history scholar.

I too look forward to hearing what he says on the subject, and hope that he does reply to your email. You really should get a copy of the Noblet so that you can read the booklet that comes with it, I think you would enjoy it very much.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: JEAN DODAL / LE PAPE card

#10
I want to be clear about something.

It is easy to see how an arm can be seen in the lower right of the Pope card. I'm even willing to believe that cardmakers in history saw it that way as well. I think it's interesting that on later decks additional monks are portrayed on the card, so I think it IS possible that that there is a "tradition" of an arm there.

However... I'm interested in tracing backwards, and seeing how that arm came to be seen that way, so rather than moving later in history to prove the point, I'm looking backwards, and I'm looking at relatives to give an indication. Before the Dodal, no deck shows the arm. The Noblet clearly shows the position of the arms, and in fact, I think the Dodal shows corruption of those positions.

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The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

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