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Re: Bolognese deck from c. 1650

Posted: 30 Mar 2012, 18:50
by Huck
Thanks for the picture ...
sembei wrote:Sorry if i don't talk too much. My english is very bad. #-o
That's not a problem. And it improves very quick, if you use it.

**********

Added: At this small representation ...

Image


... one sees ...

1 person at the Sun card
2 persons at the Moon card
3 persons at the Star card
4 persons at the Angel card
... however, only ...
1 person at the World, though in other World cards we've 5 figures.

In the Etteilla we have
Nr. 2 for sun
Nr. 3 for Moon
Nr. 4 for Star
Nr. 5 for World

Accident?

Re: Bolognese deck from c. 1650

Posted: 31 Mar 2012, 00:43
by sembei
To me, the interesting things about that small tarot are this details:
-The 4th star: also in the second card, behind the hand (!)
-The building in the background

Image

Re: Bolognese deck from c. 1650

Posted: 31 Mar 2012, 01:37
by sembei
Huck wrote:
Image

This ones, with a very similar FOOL, are from the bolognese and lombardian zone:

Gorizia, XVIII
http://www.a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks02/d00583/d00583.htm
Angelo Valla, c.1790
http://www.a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks08/d06452/d06452.htm
David Berti, XVIII
http://www.a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks02/d00586/d00586.htm
Lombardian Tarock, first half of XIX
http://www.a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks08/d06847/d06847.htm
Milano, c.1830
http://www.a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks05/d02062/d02062.htm

Re: Bolognese deck from c. 1650

Posted: 31 Mar 2012, 08:57
by robert
Hi Sembei,
Welcome to the forum! If you'd like to introduce yourself there's a thread here for that, we like to meet new members if you'd like to say hi.

Thanks very much for the links.

cheers,
robert

Re: Bolognese deck from c. 1650

Posted: 31 Mar 2012, 09:12
by robert
I love the old Bolognese design, not the later Tarot de Marseille ones, but the earlier Tarocchino from Bologna. There's a simplicity and elegance I find incredibly beautiful.

Re: Bolognese deck from c. 1650

Posted: 06 Apr 2012, 15:06
by marco
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
sembei wrote: And the sonnet is this:
http://www.letarot.it/cgi-bin/pages/sag ... onetto.jpg
Thanks - I recognize it now, in Vitali and Zanetti, no. 7. I wish they had included the illustration!

Don't worry about your English. You can post in Spanish too if you like. We're used to foreign languages and the problems of non-native speakers. There are Spanish, French, Italian, German, Finnish, and Japanese mother-tongues here. There might be others too.

I don't think this poem is translated. I'll try to start:

"Love guides, by swift steeds,
On his Wheeled Chariot, and always betrays,
the Temperate (accurate?) Bolt (?), and wounds every heart;
Death precedes him, and Winged Time follows him.
Men and Ladies, and Youths beside..."

That's all for the moment.

I think the image is of Love guiding the Lightning Bolt, if that wasn't clear. Not sure how the word Tempra is being used.
Hello Ross, here is my tentative translation. Thanks everybody for pointing out these lovely image and poem!


Love guides, by swift steeds,
On his Wheeled Chariot, and always betrays,
he tempers his Bolts and wounds every heart;
Death precedes him, and Winged Time follows him.

Men and Ladies, and Youths beside
are weighted by their merit. He joins old men
with girls, and he even dares to wound
who is crowned and sits on a throne.

Whoever thinks he can resist the power
of Love's Star is a Fool.
Everything below the Sun and the Moon must love.

Love is everywhere, among the Indians and the Moors,
Heaven and Hell are defeated by him,
Is there anything stronger in the World?


Da veloci Destrieri Amor guidato
Sul suo Carro si Ruota, e ognor tradisce
Tempra Saette, ed ogni cuor ferisce
Morte il precede, e l'segue il Tempo alato.

Uomini e Donne, e a Giovinetti a lato
Il merto si bilancia, e i vecchi unisce
Alle Fanciulle, e infin ferire ardisce
Chi sul Trono commanda Coronato.

Pazzo è quei, che resistere si crede
Della Stella d'Amor al rio tenore
Tutto ama ciò che il Sol la Luna vede.

Dagli Indi a Mori è onnipresente Amore
Il Cielo a lui, a lui l'Inferno cede
Nel Mondo, si può dar forza maggiore?

Re: Bolognese deck from c. 1650

Posted: 06 Apr 2012, 16:51
by Ross G. R. Caldwell
marco wrote: Hello Ross, here is my tentative translation. Thanks everybody for pointing out these lovely image and poem!


Love guides, by swift steeds,
On his Wheeled Chariot, and always betrays,
he tempers his Bolts and wounds every heart;
Death precedes him, and Winged Time follows him.

Men and Ladies, and Youths beside
are weighted by their merit. He joins old men
with girls, and he even dares to wound
who is crowned and sits on a throne.

Whoever thinks he can resist the power
of Love's Star is a Fool.
Everything below the Sun and the Moon must love.

Love is everywhere, among the Indians and the Moors,
Heaven and Hell are defeated by him,
Is there anything stronger in the World?


Da veloci Destrieri Amor guidato
Sul suo Carro si Ruota, e ognor tradisce
Tempra Saette, ed ogni cuor ferisce
Morte il precede, e l'segue il Tempo alato.

Uomini e Donne, e a Giovinetti a lato
Il merto si bilancia, e i vecchi unisce
Alle Fanciulle, e infin ferire ardisce
Chi sul Trono commanda Coronato.

Pazzo è quei, che resistere si crede
Della Stella d'Amor al rio tenore
Tutto ama ciò che il Sol la Luna vede.

Dagli Indi a Mori è onnipresente Amore
Il Cielo a lui, a lui l'Inferno cede
Nel Mondo, si può dar forza maggiore?
Thank you so much, Marco. That is a lovely poem, and actually quite true.

I try to take Marziano da Tortona's advice about Love. He says about Cupid that his arrow comes in "first through the eyes... whoever therefore desires to evade this most awkward and violent pest, let him hinder at the beginning what was suggested to the soul in the first place..."
- avert your eyes!

Well, that's easier said than done.

I'm happy that the start to my translation wasn't so bad, and I should have figured out what "tempra" meant.

Re: Bolognese deck from c. 1650

Posted: 06 Apr 2012, 17:31
by sembei
A funny thing about this Al Leone deck:
The horse of batons has his genitalia exposed. x_x

A comparison:
Image


Perhaps a hidden symbolism.

Re: Bolognese deck from c. 1650

Posted: 06 Apr 2012, 23:49
by Bertrand
Curious but this is not a unique case, if I remember correctly, there are the same kind of visible anatomy (although some of them are more or less well defined) on three horses in the Vieville deck (two on the knights cards, and more clearly on the sun card) - I'm a bit tired to check right now.

Bertrand

Re: Bolognese deck from c. 1650

Posted: 07 Apr 2012, 01:28
by sembei
The Sforza Castle's knight of batons and also the Drago have that flower on the front of the horse.

http://www.tarothistory.com/compare/ima ... ompare.jpg

From Robert Meiling's article "Hunting the “true” Marseille Tarot"
http://newsletter.tarotstudies.org/2006 ... marseille/