robert wrote: robert wrote:
I think it's time to go back to the Sforza Castle and the Dodal and let's take a look at the two of them together again.
And now let's add back in the Vieville Noblet and Chosson:
Notice that the Vieville and the Noblet both show the complete animals at the bottom (even if the Vieville has them swapped). The Chosson shows part of the animal, but part is cut off. Of course the Vieville and Noblet also show the figure with the robe whereas the Chosson shows the female with the scarf. The Vieville, Noblet, and Sforza Castle World cards all show the complete animals, I believe the Dodal would have showed the whole animals if he wasn't trying to fit in the titles and numbers. The Vieville has no titles, and the numbers appear to have been added as an afterthought.
How can we explain the Noblet and the Chosson?
As I mentioned earlier, I believe the Noblet was a complete redrawing. From the start the artist had set aside room for titles and numbers. That is why all of the Noblet Trumps and Courts have titles on them, including Death and all of the Valets.
I'm not sure about the Chosson (or Tarot de Marseille II shall we say). In some ways he seems to be copying Dodal, as if he is not aware of the same style of cards that the Vieville, Noblet, Sforza Castle and Dodal all seem to be related to. On the other hand, I don't think he is basing his work only on a Dodal or some other deck that has titles and numbers already on it. To be honest, I still can't place it in time or explain it other than that it seems to be some sort of an "update"?
I'm curious to know what you think?
I am back in the battlefield after meal and would like to exprim my thoughts (even if I repeat may be sorry):
Those cardmakers more or less seems to have :
Priviligiated (is it english ?) Image rather than Tittles and Numbers.
Tried to ADD Names and Numbers to Images.
Decided to reduce cards Images by some cuttings Top and/or Bottoom in place of Uncutting at all Image and add Names and Numbers on Top and Botoom of a Full size Image.
I knows that usual Theory consist in saying that originaly cards had no Names nor Numbers and Images were like we all knows them: Cutted Images with Hats half cutted, Lion or Bull partly cutted, or other part of Image "out of the Film".
Just like if we had a scene happening outside a house and we are looking from the bedroom Through the window (window beeing the Frame of the card, the black line rectangular perimeter of the card so).
But but... for me the scene was complete and not partly represented.
And furthermore Names and Numbers "cartridges" I think are part of the card Image.
In short Image IS build up of 3 elements: Name, Image and number.
That are part of the proportionned card.
This opinion is non conventionnal but is mine let's say.
Chronology is good for starting a survey but after this base, we have to be Free Bird to fly to unknow countrys
Apart of this I share your views about Noblet. Even if I have not checked all cards of it.
Personne n'est au dessus de l'obligation de dire la vérité.
Nobody is above obligation to tell truth.