Re: NOBLET = VIEVILLE ?

#71
Mon cherie Ami !!!

-There is only a reason for this a tres important raison...
Dearest Robert said to me yesterday,that may be Monsieur Dodal add titles and number "after",so he cut off for example the legs of le garçon of VI card.
May be Dodal suggest that he can t go anywhere thanks for his indecision ? - (depicted by this card ).
I saw the moulds of Tourrasse,and just wanted to hear "in your words" mon ami !
So if one can see here all the card was engraved at once...
What a hell is this of add titles and numbers after I say to dear Robert here ???
CONVER MOULD 1760-1-pear wood templates.jpg
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

UNCUT CARDS

#72
Hello Amigo,

For me a card is made of:
A full designed caracter or many. And this point is very important.
His name if necessary
His number if necessary.

Even 13 is named La Mort
Le Pendu is named ... le pendu. With V in place of U regarding his period of creation (Cardmaker period)
Le Mat is named but not numbered.... But is treated specificly let say.. for the moment.

Size of this card and his Proportions are also important matters. Main point too.

French language is also an important matter for namming cards.
On the other hand Barres codes before and after some names on Conver deck are a deadend solution of Enigma.

Colors codes are also very important matter but have to be careffully studied regarding General Purpose of Tarot deck.We can't put out/extract an Historical deck from his period of time (carmaker date) without taking this period into account in our analyse of this specific tarot deck.
An Historian of Art I suppose works like this.

Last but no least, a deep knowledge of our ACTUAL Color codes (in all parts of our wide world) is a pre requisite as to avoid any parasiting ideas and or concept errors.

Nobody is perfect and I hope I will not make too much errors in my Holy Quest. 8-)

Salute,

Yves
Personne n'est au dessus de l'obligation de dire la vérité.
Nobody is above obligation to tell truth.

Re: NOBLET = VIEVILLE ?

#73
Mon cherie Ami....
Agreed with you all.
But,tell me....
If Dodal cut off the images of the cards as a somewhat Chainsaw Madman,to fit numbers and titles.

*Why my dear friend Yves,the skull of the skeleton surpassed the number bar and the schyte is cut off ?????

-Was not as Dear Robert said that the purpose of cut off the images was to name the card ?

Eugim,the Question Man.
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

BALL TRAP

#74
EUGIM wrote:Mon cherie Ami....
Agreed with you all.
But,tell me....
If Dodal cut off the images of the cards as a somewhat Chainsaw Madman,to fit numbers and titles.

*Why my dear friend Yves,the skull of the skeleton surpassed the number bar and the schyte is cut off ?????

-Was not as Dear Robert said that the purpose of cut off the images was to name the card ?

Eugim,the Question Man.
With you Miguel I feel like a ball trap shooter that try to hit as much pigeons he can while machine is launching birds at a quick rythm let'say... :lol:

In my opinion if Dodal or any Cardmaker Cutter prefer to cut (so reduce) his images created (or copied from an original model) in view to name a card, he made a big error.

Because for me name and number cartriges are Parts of the entire Model and don't have to reduce the message of the Image.

Imagine a bottle of Bordeaux who is cutted/reduced to be named. It's a sacriliege Damn'it !!

But with Capitalism and Temple' Sellers all is possible (and happened inded helas).

Label is label and product is product.
Image is the Main message. Not the only one.

A la tienne. Hic !! :roll:

Yves
Personne n'est au dessus de l'obligation de dire la vérité.
Nobody is above obligation to tell truth.

Re: NOBLET = VIEVILLE ?

#75
I'm under the impression that if a cardmaker wanted to make changes to the woodblock, they would cut out the offending area and glue a replacement into the place. If true, one possibility is that "Dodal" started off with a woodblock without titles and numbers, and then cut out areas of the images to insert the new titles, he would try to carve out around the "important" parts of the imagery if he could which would have left images much like what we see on the Dodal.

The other option, and the one I'm more inclined to is that he copied a woodblock but in the artwork he simply replaced art with titles and numbers, but kept the images the same width and height as the old woodblock. Perhaps the woodblock needed to stay the same size for a reason.. paper? machinery? whatever the reason, he did not ADD extra space for the titles and numbers, he had to take away image space for the titles and numbers.

That is my theory.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

KING SIZING ?

#76
robert wrote:I'm under the impression that if a cardmaker wanted to make changes to the woodblock, they would cut out the offending area and glue a replacement into the place. If true, one possibility is that "Dodal" started off with a woodblock without titles and numbers, and then cut out areas of the images to insert the new titles, he would try to carve out around the "important" parts of the imagery if he could which would have left images much like what we see on the Dodal.

The other option, and the one I'm more inclined to is that he copied a woodblock but in the artwork he simply replaced art with titles and numbers, but kept the images the same width and height as the old woodblock. Perhaps the woodblock needed to stay the same size for a reason.. paper? machinery? whatever the reason, he did not ADD extra space for the titles and numbers, he had to take away image space for the titles and numbers.

That is my theory.
Hello all,

I agree with one thing: Art was originaly same width and height.
But I think too that cards were bigger than now. I means Tarot de Marseille were bigger than 126 X 64 mm who is average size of this decks.
So.... Tittles and Numbers were part of card without cutting Images in my opinion.

After saying this I can accept reality of Dodal, Payen, Conver and others that they cutted original Images.
For machinery, paper sheet dimensions, players preferences or any commercial reasons.
Temple'sellers as I said above. Business is Bussiness $$$$ ££££ €€€€€

This is the only acceptable solution I found.

Cheers,

Yves
Personne n'est au dessus de l'obligation de dire la vérité.
Nobody is above obligation to tell truth.

Re: Noblet = VIEVILLE ?

#77
Yves Le Marseillais wrote:
robert wrote:I'm under the impression that if a cardmaker wanted to make changes to the woodblock, they would cut out the offending area and glue a replacement into the place. If true, one possibility is that "Dodal" started off with a woodblock without titles and numbers, and then cut out areas of the images to insert the new titles, he would try to carve out around the "important" parts of the imagery if he could which would have left images much like what we see on the Dodal.

The other option, and the one I'm more inclined to is that he copied a woodblock but in the artwork he simply replaced art with titles and numbers, but kept the images the same width and height as the old woodblock. Perhaps the woodblock needed to stay the same size for a reason.. paper? machinery? whatever the reason, he did not ADD extra space for the titles and numbers, he had to take away image space for the titles and numbers.

That is my theory.
Hello all,

I agree with one thing: Art was originaly same width and height.
But I think too that cards were bigger than now. I means Tarot de Marseille were bigger than 126 X 64 mm who is average size of this decks.
So.... Tittles and Numbers were part of card without cutting Images in my opinion.

After saying this I can accept reality of Dodal, Payen, Conver and others that they cutted original Images.
For machinery, paper sheet dimensions, players preferences or any commercial reasons.
Temple'sellers as I said above. Business is Bussiness $$$$ ££££ €€€€€

This is the only acceptable solution I found.

Cheers,

Yves
How do you explain the lack of a crossbar on the Dodal Le Pendu?
Image
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: NOBLET = VIEVILLE ?

#78
Personally I believe that crossbar in Dodal it is being covered by the numeration, since the branch of the stick to the right of the cord is shown and the fork of the right also is seen, for my the titles and numbers of this deck were recorded possibly later, not thus in the case of Conver of whom we counted on engraving plates to corroborate the opposite.

CROSSBAR

#79
LA MORT SAID:
lamort wrote:Personally I believe that crossbar in Dodal it is being covered by the numeration, since the branch of the stick to the right of the cord is shown and the fork of the right also is seen, for my the titles and numbers of this deck were recorded possibly later, not thus in the case of Conver of whom we counted on engraving plates to corroborate the opposite.
ROBERT SAID:
How do you explain the lack of a crossbar on the Dodal Le Pendu?

Hello again both,

I agree with La Mort proposal ^:)^ , and would add that may be Dodal copied... from a wrong original Tarot or decided for various bussiness reasons to cut Image.

In both case he was wrong for me regarding ... Eternity but may be got extra money thanks to his operations. $-)

Yves Marseille Man :ar!
Personne n'est au dessus de l'obligation de dire la vérité.
Nobody is above obligation to tell truth.

Re: NOBLET = VIEVILLE ?

#80
lamort wrote:Personally I believe that crossbar in Dodal it is being covered by the numeration, since the branch of the stick to the right of the cord is shown and the fork of the right also is seen, for my the titles and numbers of this deck were recorded possibly later, not thus in the case of Conver of whom we counted on engraving plates to corroborate the opposite.
:-bd
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

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