Re: NOBLET = VIEVILLE ?

#11
Hello all,

About exportation of Dodal to Italy, I thinks it is highly possible...just like exportation to Swissland too because Swiss was a sort of "Hub"* for tarot cards in Dodal/payen period.
May be some Dodal decks was also exported to Germany via Swiss or even directly from Lyon city.

*A hub is a Maritime term that means a port who is used as a place for receiving goods (i.e conteners), and resending them in another direction).

I don't have Kaplan books in home for checking your hypothesis.

Salute, regards, Ciao, best,

Yves 8-)
Personne n'est au dessus de l'obligation de dire la vérité.
Nobody is above obligation to tell truth.

Re: NOBLET = VIEVILLE ?

#12
Eugim, we know that the Dodal was made for export, as Enrique points out, it has "Faite pour l'étranger" added onto several cards. The question is, where was it "made for export" to? The Swiss market, as Yves points out, makes a lot of sense; but I've always thought in my head that it was probably Italy.

I've already packed my Tarot books, so I can't look it up; but I think that Kaplan says in the list of cardmakers that he was listed as "Dodali". At least, I have him as Dodali in my mind, which sounds Italian, no? I might be crazy, (rumor supports that theory).
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: NOBLET = VIEVILLE ?

#13
Found this thread on AT:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=59627
Fulcanelli on Aeclectic, post 15 wrote:Dodali and Kaplan

I hit the Kaplan Encyclopedias in search of information on Jean Dadal(i) and was shocked to find so little, considering the how much importance you have given this deck.

Vol. 1 lists Dodali as one of the French card makers in the first paragraph of chapter XI, about 18th - 19th century cards (p.137.)

Vol. 2 includes an extensive list of card makers, locations, dates and Dodali is on the that list, p. 211.
So if anyone has the Encyclopedias handy.. that's where this is coming from.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: NOBLET = VIEVILLE ?

#14
Hello Robert...
I love too very much Iean Dodal deck.
1-Yes,is "Faite pour l'étranger"
2-On an very odd way I think ...
3-LE PENDV reversed numbered so leaving place to place him upward and the seven de COUPEE unnumbered...
That doesn t help to the strangers card players I think.

eugim
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

Re: NOBLET = VIEVILLE ?

#15
I've said many times that I don't place much stock in the numbering. It seems pretty clear that the numbers were added after the images. Often, the numbers were added at the expense of the image itself. Comparing the Vieville pips to the pips of a Tarot de Marseille, we can see where it is, very likely in my opinion, that parts of the flowers and vines were removed to add in the numbers. The numbers were added to make it easier for gameplay.

As for the reversing, especially in the Vieville, it is pretty clear that he didn't really care about flipping images. Just look at Temperance where the writing on the side is reversed, it is clearly a copy. This is common with the Vieville, and I suspect fairly common generally because of the way blocks were copied. At this point, I wouldn't want to guess "which came first" when placing the direction of cards like Death, Fool, and Emperor. I think it's important to remember that all of our remaining decks are more than likely LATE COPIES. There's 150 years between the Cary Sheet and the Noblet/Vieville. If we assume that the Tarot de Marseille model goes back even earlier (fair enough), that adds just more time in between for copying and changing.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: NOBLET = VIEVILLE ?

#16
So the unnumbered 7 de COUPEE and LE PENDV as IIX were irrelavant,a clumsy negligence of Dodal ?
We both know enough that card players at these time so when the deck was created,were illiterate,so such things doesen t help to the strangers card players I think.
It s ovbious thus that they guided by visual patterns...
IIX isn t XII not an 8 also.

eugim
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

Re: NOBLET = VIEVILLE ?

#17
Jean-Michel has argued that the numbers were additive, that IIX was the same as XII. I personally don't know, but I do think that it's obvious that the numbers were added as afterthought.

We have the Sforza-Castle cards, the Cary Sheet, and the Vieville, as well as the early hand painted decks like the Viscontis, to highly suggest that the images came first, the numbers were added. What we see with the Vieville is clumsy addition of the numbers on the Trumps. On the Dodal and Noblet we see random adding of the numbers. I the Dodal we see the clumsy addition of the titles (look at the top of the Hanged Man for goodness sake).

I saw it suggested by someone (I think Rosanne, would have to look for the post) that on the Noblet, the numbers were added on cards so that when they were held fan-shaped in the hand, the cards that weren't obvious had the number. I have no idea how accurate that is either.

What I do know is that all of these decks show signs of the numbers being added on later. They shows signs of titles being added on as well. I don't think the titles or numbers are nearly as relevant as the images, and I certainly wouldn't assign any esoteric meaning to them because of how they are presented, or not presented. What I would say is that the titles and numbers do show us what the French cardmakers thought of the cards and their order at the time when they added them. They show us differences in orders, they show us differences in names.

I really think it's important to focus on the iconography of the card. I think the numbers and titles, or lack thereof, are significantly less meaningful. They are however VERY helpful for tracing the ancestry and development of the cards.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: NOBLET = VIEVILLE ?

#18
1-Robert I allways focused on iconography as you know...
The IIX topic I discussed before with JMD and I sent to him this link which show that IIX can t assume as XII and also not as an 8
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_numerals
2-We both know that titles and umbers were added later.
I allways talk abour Tarot de Marseilles decks so aside it s Italian origin,I think that Marseilles pattern has it s own right tradition and self enough history.
3-I never mentioned the world "esoteric".
Precisely I mentioned the matter of seven de COUPPE unnumbered to ask if it were a negligence or not...

eugim ;)
-
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

Re: NOBLET = VIEVILLE ?

#19
Hi Eugim,
EUGIM wrote:1-Robert I allways focused on iconography as you know...
The IIX topic I discussed before with JMD and I sent to him this link which show that IIX can t assume as XII and also not as an 8
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_numerals
I really don't mind one way or another. I ask jmd to address it if he feels like it. For me, there are enough signs of "sloppiness" to indicate that it is just as likely a problem with coping, as shown on Temperance.
EUGIM wrote:2-We both know that titles and umbers were added later.
I allways talk abour Tarot de Marseilles decks so aside it s Italian origin,I think that Marseilles pattern has it s own right tradition and self enough history.
I think we agree on this. I'm not even 100% sure it is Italian, but I do think it is certainly most likely to be.
EUGIM wrote:3-I never mentioned the world "esoteric".
Precisely I mentioned the matter of seven de COUPPE unnumbered to ask if it were a negligence or not...
Whoops. I apologize. I thought you were suggesting some "meaning" to the numbering, or lack of numbering. To properly answer your question then... Yes, I imagine it is likely a mistake. It could be that it was thought to be unnecessary. I'm not sure why Noblet and Dodal have some cards numbered and some not, I can only guess that it shows a stage when numbers were being added for ease of game play, that makes the most sense to me. Best. :)
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: NOBLET = VIEVILLE ?

#20
Robert...
I want to be honest here or elsewhere .

1-Signs,details,numbers,words,places on a deck sequence,need to have an explanation,even if there are there or not.
TEMPERANCE figure has wings,so not Italians decks,I think that must be a reason.
2-So yes I think that about 7 de COUPEE unnumbered must be two reason:
a- I simple negligence
b- A hidden meaning

eugim :)
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

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