EUGIM wrote:Hello Yves:
May be my english is till now far from the farthest,but / are you saying that there" was" a crossbar on the Dodal card and then was cut off ?
If yes,which was the purpose ?
How corroborate this ?

Hi ombre,

I don't know if there was a crossbar on The Dodal deck himself... But for me it is very clear that a crossbar is not a possibility BUT an obvious NEED for the rope who tied the foot of Hanged man.

Again read my previous mail about cardridges positionning and just... IMAGINE.

How corrorating this ?

By collecting as much as possible Historical decks.
Being practical.
Being free of rules.
Being imaginative.
Being ready for changes.
And may be inspired..

Salute,

Yves 8-) :o

Yves Le Marseillais wrote:

robert wrote:

EUGIM wrote:Could you tell me Robertinho (Brazilian way ) where LE PENDV is tied ?
1-Don t tell that Monsieur Dodal "cut off" the image please ?

Monsieur Dodal "cut off" the image when he added the titles.



And honestly, it's great that he did it. It shows us that he was struggling with using a woodblock like the one that created the Sforza Castle cards, and sacrificed part of the image to add the number and title. It shows up on many of his cards, including, of course, his struggle with the World card, the Valets, Death, and The Lovers.

Hello Robert, Miguel and all the crew,

You can't imagine how right you are when you think that images were cut off.
Expend your vision of cards and just authorise yourself to remove the curtain that partly covered images.
And just allow you,after this first step (and Only after this first job) to ADD cardridges (top and bottom).

If you accept this two fundamentals steps, you are now ready for.... close future.

Be patient again 8-)

YLM

Hi Yves! Lovely to see you. Do I have to crawl to Marseille on my hands and knees to see this deck that finally sets things right again? Just one card maybe? A preview between friends?

Waiting.. waiting... waiting...

(and while you're at it, I still want to see the whole damned HERI!!!)

Okay,let me suppose this...

-Btw,which is the degree of premeditation regarding to details ?
I mean how far accept the image given of a card as intentional ?

For example in the case of Dodal the skull of the skeleton clearly surpassed the number bar as I never seen in another deck.
Negligence ? / Premeditation ? / Or it has any sense this detail ?
If not,why also is only observed at the XXI card where the halos also surpassed it ?

Robert: You told me that the purpose is to name the card.
So why Dodal or Merme did not cut off the skull of the skeleton at XIII for this purpose ?

EUGIM wrote:Okay,let me suppose this...

-Btw,which is the degree of premeditation regarding to details ?
I mean how far accept the image given of a card as intentional ?

For example in the case of Dodal the skull of the skeleton clearly surpassed the number bar as I never seen in another deck.
Negligence ? / Premeditation ? / Or it has any sense this detail ?
If not,why also is only observed at the XXI card where the halos also surpassed it ?

You're almost there.

Imagine that the creator of the Dodal started with a Tarot de Marseille that didn't have any titles and numbers on them, but he wanted to add the titles and numbers, and so he CUT OUT parts of the images, and INSERTED the titles and numbers. He tries to work around some cards where he can because he wants to try to keep the imagery as much as possible. On Le Pendu, he cuts off the cross bar. On the World he cuts off the bottoms of the bottom evangelists, on the Lovers he cuts off feet. On some Valets he doesn't cut off at all, but runs the titles up the side. On others he leaves the title off entirely. On Death he leaves the title off so that he doesn't have to cut off the scythe. On Strength he cuts off the top of her hat and the lions tail and her foot.

You want to know what the world card looked like before Dodal took his knife to it? This is it (thanks Ross!):
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_SprowhgyguQ/S ... omondo.jpg

I know the card thanks after all.
I think your arguments are a possibility,but why in the case of Vieville the halos surpassed the number bar when the card is not named ?
The card is also only numbered as the Sforza Castle and is not cut off.

EUGIM wrote:I know the card thanks after all.
I think your arguments are a possibility,but why in the case of Vieville the halos surpassed the number bar when the card is not named ?
The card is also only numbered as the Sforza Castle and is not cut off.

Look again at the number on the sforza castle, it is outside of the border, compared to other decks where there is a whole new number area where the number was inserted.

PS.. to be clear.. Vieville added numbers, but not titles. You can see that Vieville also started with an image without numbers and titles, he forced the numbers in wherever he could, but he didn't change the images, that is why the numbers all in such weird places. Dodal cut out part of the images and then made new areas for titles and numbers (on most cards, and with varying success).

Ross: If you read this can you tell me whether the Sforza Castle World card has "folded over" edges? We discussed this on that thread years ago and I don't think we ever got a final answer. It would make a stronger case for what I am suggesting if it does because then it would mean the number had to be added not as part of the print, but after on top of the folded edge. It would also explain why part of the image is still cut off like the way part of the Bull's face is cut off.

(not that I think it ruins the suggestion if it isn't)

Thanks
robert

Of course,but in this case why the halo of the eagle at S.C. card is cut off ?

EUGIM wrote:Of course,but in this case why the halo of the eagle at S.C. card is cut off ?

See my note to Ross above.

Even if not, I would say that the Sforza Castle World would be a copy of an image where it was.

I simply can't believe it could go the other way around, where the maker of the Sforza Castle World started out with a Dodal type deck and then REMOVED the titles and numbers and replaced it with image???!!! Nope. No way. The image was first, the titles and numbers were later.