Yves Le Marseillais wrote:
I agree with La Mort proposal , and would add that may be Dodal copied... from a wrong original Tarot or decided for various bussiness reasons to cut Image.

In both case he was wrong for me regarding ... Eternity but may be got extra money thanks to his operations.

Yves Marseille Man

Ah, but what if Dodal was copying from the right original tarot, and he was struggling with converting it to having titles and numbers?

I think it's time to go back to the Sforza Castle and the Dodal and let's take a look at the two of them together again.


Right. So you know what I think happened here. I think the Sforza Castle card is the type of card that the Dodal is based on, and that he added the title and numbers and tried to keep as much of the image as possible but cut off a bit at the top and cut off the bottom of the animals.

What do you think?

robert wrote: I think it's time to go back to the Sforza Castle and the Dodal and let's take a look at the two of them together again.

Right. So you know what I think happened here. I think the Sforza Castle card is the type of card that the Dodal is based on, and that he added the title and numbers and tried to keep as much of the image as possible but cut off a bit at the top and cut off the bottom of the animals.

What do you think?

Definitively I agree Robert!!

lamort wrote:
Definitively I agree Robert!!

Thanks lamort, it's nice to have some support with the theory. But I must caution you that the Sun is from a different deck from Sforza Castle than the World card from the Sforza Castle, and I'm not sure about where it fits in the stages of development. You're right in that the sun matches the Dodal very well, but it certainly seems to have numbers at the top. Is this an "in between" card? I'm not sure. But the feet are certainly very interesting aren't they? The figures are also remind me of the Noblet. So, a man and a woman, not two twins.


See what I mean?

Sorry but not understand correctly, you say that this sun possibly is not of SC?

With respect to the image in if, I see what you say Rob and it´s truth that the figures are nearer the Noblet, but the sun, the drops and terrain resemble much Dodal seems to me, the uniformity of the skin of the man of this card is similar to Dodal too...

lamort wrote:Sorry but not understand correctly, you say that this sun possibly is not of SC?

With respect to the image in if, I see what you say Rob and it´s truth that the figures are nearer the Noblet, but the sun, the drops and terrain resemble much Dodal seems to me, the uniformity of the skin of the man of this card is similar to Dodal too...

Hi lamort,

Yes and no.

The group of cards from Sforza Castle are made up from several different decks, they were all found together dumped into a "well" at the castle, but many have different backs and styles. I don't remember exactly how many different decks are in the group of cards, but the Sun is from a different deck than the World, although they were both found at the same place at the same time because all of the different decks had been thrown together into the well. We can match up the different decks by looking at their backs and comparing their sizes. So Yes, they are both from Sforza Castle, and No, they are not from the same deck!

I agree with you completely about the Sun matching the Dodal more than the Noblet, I just wanted to show the Noblet too as I think the man and woman look similar to the Noblet. Really, the point I am leading to is that the Noblet TOO was based on an earlier deck, but that instead of taking existing images like the Dodal and converting them by adding numbers and titles, Noblet started fresh and redrew the cards completely, but his cards were based on a deck similar to the type of deck that the Dodal was based on. So we have two "testaments" of what that other deck probably looked like. I think , I'm not sure, but I think.

Now I understand! Thanks for the explanation Rob… I did not know that in the SC they were cards of different decks, thought that both were of the same deck…
these smiles compensate my english limitations!

robert wrote:[
I think it's time to go back to the Sforza Castle and the Dodal and let's take a look at the two of them together again.

And now let's add back in the Vieville Noblet and Chosson:



Notice that the Vieville and the Noblet both show the complete animals at the bottom (even if the Vieville has them swapped). The Chosson shows part of the animal, but part is cut off. Of course the Vieville and Noblet also show the figure with the robe whereas the Chosson shows the female with the scarf. The Vieville, Noblet, and Sforza Castle World cards all show the complete animals, I believe the Dodal would have showed the whole animals if he wasn't trying to fit in the titles and numbers. The Vieville has no titles, and the numbers appear to have been added as an afterthought.

How can we explain the Noblet and the Chosson?

As I mentioned earlier, I believe the Noblet was a complete redrawing. From the start the artist had set aside room for titles and numbers. That is why all of the Noblet Trumps and Courts have titles on them, including Death and all of the Valets.

I'm not sure about the Chosson (or Tarot de Marseille II shall we say). In some ways he seems to be copying Dodal, as if he is not aware of the same style of cards that the Vieville, Noblet, Sforza Castle and Dodal all seem to be related to. On the other hand, I don't think he is basing his work only on a Dodal or some other deck that has titles and numbers already on it. To be honest, I still can't place it in time or explain it other than that it seems to be some sort of an "update"?

I'm curious to know what you think?

robert wrote:

robert wrote:[
I think it's time to go back to the Sforza Castle and the Dodal and let's take a look at the two of them together again.

And now let's add back in the Vieville Noblet and Chosson:

Notice that the Vieville and the Noblet both show the complete animals at the bottom (even if the Vieville has them swapped). The Chosson shows part of the animal, but part is cut off. Of course the Vieville and Noblet also show the figure with the robe whereas the Chosson shows the female with the scarf. The Vieville, Noblet, and Sforza Castle World cards all show the complete animals, I believe the Dodal would have showed the whole animals if he wasn't trying to fit in the titles and numbers. The Vieville has no titles, and the numbers appear to have been added as an afterthought.

How can we explain the Noblet and the Chosson?

As I mentioned earlier, I believe the Noblet was a complete redrawing. From the start the artist had set aside room for titles and numbers. That is why all of the Noblet Trumps and Courts have titles on them, including Death and all of the Valets.

I'm not sure about the Chosson (or Tarot de Marseille II shall we say). In some ways he seems to be copying Dodal, as if he is not aware of the same style of cards that the Vieville, Noblet, Sforza Castle and Dodal all seem to be related to. On the other hand, I don't think he is basing his work only on a Dodal or some other deck that has titles and numbers already on it. To be honest, I still can't place it in time or explain it other than that it seems to be some sort of an "update"?

I'm curious to know what you think?

Hello crew,

I am back in the battlefield after meal and would like to exprim my thoughts (even if I repeat may be sorry):

Those cardmakers more or less seems to have :

Priviligiated (is it english ?) Image rather than Tittles and Numbers.
Tried to ADD Names and Numbers to Images.
Decided to reduce cards Images by some cuttings Top and/or Bottoom in place of Uncutting at all Image and add Names and Numbers on Top and Botoom of a Full size Image.

I knows that usual Theory consist in saying that originaly cards had no Names nor Numbers and Images were like we all knows them: Cutted Images with Hats half cutted, Lion or Bull partly cutted, or other part of Image "out of the Film".

Just like if we had a scene happening outside a house and we are looking from the bedroom Through the window (window beeing the Frame of the card, the black line rectangular perimeter of the card so).

But but... for me the scene was complete and not partly represented.
And furthermore Names and Numbers "cartridges" I think are part of the card Image.

In short Image IS build up of 3 elements: Name, Image and number.
That are part of the proportionned card.

This opinion is non conventionnal but is mine let's say.

Chronology is good for starting a survey but after this base, we have to be Free Bird to fly to unknow countrys

Apart of this I share your views about Noblet. Even if I have not checked all cards of it.

Yves

As far as I'm aware, Yves, none of the very early handpainted decks show titles or numbering.

So the earliest are also more similar to the SC in that sense: no title intended, and no number needed (though in the gaming that may be of some use depending on the rules of play).

jmd wrote:As far as I'm aware, Yves, none of the very early handpainted decks show titles or numbering.

So the earliest are also more similar to the SC in that sense: no title intended, and no number needed (though in the gaming that may be of some use depending on the rules of play).

Hello Jean Michel and all,

Yes for oldest decks as I said in my post: This is the official position of searchers. I respect but still explore other "possibilities".
But I noticed on The World card of Sforza castle showed that number XXI appears.
And for gaming it is more confortable for sure.

Tarot world is not yet fully explred and some areas are still Terra Incognita.

Internal structure of card for exemple. I means geometricly talking.

Best

Yves LM