NOBLET = VIEVILLE ?

#1
Hello all,

After I postulated (like some of us), that may be some Dodal and Payen decks were made by same hands, I found that may be there is also a direct connection between this 2 Parisian French cardmakers, Jean Noblet and Jacques Vieville.
On ATF a thread was started after somebody send this link:

http://trionfi.com/m/d0yyyy.php%3Fdecknr=1426

Where we can see that Honnours are exactly looking like Jean Noblet Honours (i.e King and Queen of Batons).

Frankly I was very surprised and if somebody have a rational explination about that I would be pleased. :?:

Best,

Yves Le Marseillais 8-)
Personne n'est au dessus de l'obligation de dire la vérité.
Nobody is above obligation to tell truth.

Re: NOBLET = VIEVILLE ?

#2
Hi Yves!

I don't think there's anything to this at all. The deck looks like something thrown together by someone making a buck rather than anything authentic. The court cards are obviously THE Noblet, the BnF stamp is exactly the same as on the Noblet Scans, so this deck looks like something put together fairly recently mixing a bunch of stuff together very inartistically... not a historical deck at all.

I see no reason to connect the Vieville and the Noblet, other than that someone obviously carelessly threw them together. Unless I'm missing something?

As for the Payen/Dodal, I think it's generally accepted they are from the same hand/workshop. I think the most important piece of evidence (beside the obvious graphic relationship) of this was discovered by Jean-Michel when he noted the "I.P." on the Moon card. Let me find the thread on that...
here ya go: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=44790
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: NOBLET = VIEVILLE ?

#3
I agree with le pendu on this.

In fact, if you look at, for example, the manner in which the ink as flowed on, for example, the Queen of Batons, the so-called 'Vievil' modern deck Grimaud has put out is taken from the Noblet scans from the B.N.

Nothing there to even indicate ANY connection to Vieville except that perhaps Grimaud was intending on using the Vieville and discovered that it may be better to use the Noblet, having already perhaps designed the box.

A misnomer if ever there was one!

...I'd be glad to be shown to be mistaken, of course :)
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Re: NOBLET = VIEVILLE ?

#4
Hello Robert and Jean Michel and all,

Frankly I prefers this otherwise it would have been a total mess :lol: !!

But this case shows us that business card makers activity is full of financial contingency that frequently has nothing to see with Art and even more Truth.

The Dodal/Payen connection is similar in terms of financial adaptation to a Taxes affair by dealing a commercial agreement as to get access to a foreign part of market (Swiss probably).

Money is part of Tarot History as a main factor.

Fortunatly, not the only one isn't it ? :mrgreen:

Thanks for your opinions

Yves "The Local" :geek:
Personne n'est au dessus de l'obligation de dire la vérité.
Nobody is above obligation to tell truth.

Re: NOBLET = VIEVILLE ?

#5
I think JMD's explanation for why Grimaud made this odd deck is as good as any.

Why not use a normal set of French-suited court cards from the era? They just mixed two kinds of suits (Latin tarot suits, and French suits for the pips), and used the Tarot Chevaliers for Jacks when they should have used the Valets.

Terrible conception for a deck of cards, and a laughable misnomer.
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Re: NOBLET = VIEVILLE ?

#6
Yves Le Marseillais wrote:Hello Robert and Jean Michel and all,

Frankly I prefers this otherwise it would have been a total mess :lol: !!

But this case shows us that business card makers activity is full of financial contingency that frequently has nothing to see with Art and even more Truth.

The Dodal/Payen connection is similar in terms of financial adaptation to a Taxes affair by dealing a commercial agreement as to get access to a foreign part of market (Swiss probably).

Money is part of Tarot History as a main factor.

Fortunatly, not the only one isn't it ? :mrgreen:

Thanks for your opinions

Yves "The Local" :geek:
Hi Yves,

For some reason, I've always guessed that the "Dodal" was for export to Italy. I seem to remember that Dodal may have also been known as "Dodali" or such, perhaps from Kaplan?

Something I find interesting in connection with Dodal/Payen: The Payen family was creating cards in Marseille in the 1600s, so if the pattern seen in the Payen/Dodal is similar to the pattern created generations earlier, that places the "Tarot de Marseille I" in Marseille in the 1600s.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

TAROT MADE IN MARSEILLE ?

#7
Yes Payens are originated from Marseille even if they made up their Card makers carrer in Avignon for 10 generations.

In fact some Tarot passionnates do think that Tarot of Marseille Pattern was really made up IN Marseille.

Facts says that amount of Card makers was triplate (at equivalent period of time) in Lyon or Paris comparing to Marseille.

But this doesn't means that Marseille was not the original point of departure.

Numbers and Qualitys are two very different things isn't it ?

Academic Historians of Tarot normaly do think that Tarot camed from Italy and not from Marseille.

And they explain this with Triomfi adding in Italy ect..

I don't have any definitive opinion at this stage of my life (and may be never e :mrgreen: ) about this point.

I leaves in Marseille but my Nation is Univers... So I am open to any location 8-)

Yves
Personne n'est au dessus de l'obligation de dire la vérité.
Nobody is above obligation to tell truth.

Re: NOBLET = VIEVILLE ?

#8
Hello Yves....
"Ours Che Guevara of this Forum " ... (friendly of course...)

1-Vieville-Noblet crossed .... // Very spicy certainly mon bon ami !!!
2-Same time and place,but different pattern over all.
3-You "Che" didn t need that I show to you that of course...
4-JPP and J Dodal are of course at less bro !!! as JMD show to us...
5--Just for me the point if why that Che ?
6-At Vievile deck the LE MAT t show the same side as XIII and XV also Che ....
7-I mean also LE MAT,XIII And LE DIABLE gone to a party !
8- That isn t a mistake after all ...

eugim
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

Re: NOBLET = VIEVILLE ?

#9
le pendu wrote:
For some reason, I've always guessed that the "Dodal" was for export to Italy. I seem to remember that Dodal may have also been known as "Dodali" or such, perhaps from Kaplan?
Well, both La Force and Le Monde say: " Faite pour l'étranger".

EE
What’s honeymoon salad? Lettuce alone
Don’t look now, mayonnaise is dressing!

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