Re: Schedel'sche Weltchronik

#11
Inside this debate I may remember to a card, which was sold at Christie in 2009

Image


... which was announced here
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=402

Not too far from ...

2 Sun

Image


Image


Also there's the Splendor Solis book and a preceding picture of Dürer in 1512 ...

Image


... which together with the animal is said to mean "eternity" ...

Image


And somehow the Splendor Solis is related to Augsburg and the Fugger and Fugger-theme naturally somehow to emperor Charles V.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Schedel'sche Weltchronik

#12
Pen's discovery of the connection between Etteilla III and this book is really great! I think it would make an excellent subject for an IPCS paper :)

From the "Trionfi.com: News and Updates" thread:
Huck wrote: I hesitate to scan the pictures, as they're actually one of the few really new things in the "Castello dei Tarocchi", and such books actually need some buyers.
... the sun and moon combination is the most nice picture.
Another picture shows "the" council ... it's more than once used in the book.
Another shows emperor Maximilian.
Another shows an evangelist, Lucas with a bull.
Another a scene with Jesus: "Gesu somministra l'eucaristia al prete Gianni"

All in the general style of the chronica, so not especially remarkable.

Maximilian isn't emperor at the production time of the book ...
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db ... &seite=589
The card has the same
"Linea imperator Maximilianus"
at the top, then added the dice at the left and a "Vince due." or "Vince dae." at the bottom

... well, no imformation about the complete deck and the rest of the cards, only the information, that at least some further cards exist for the moment. But we have a sort of promise, that we will get scans.
Here is some more information about the five cards reproduced in Il Castello dei Tarocchi. In square brackets, the combination of two dice appearing on the card:

[2+4] top: "Linea imperato[rum] Maximilanus" (engraved text), i.e. Maximilian from the line of the emperors. The two dice appear at the left of the image. They are two separate squares, and are not composed as a "domino" (in the other four cards, the dice always appear as "dominoes" in the lower part of the card). At the bottom, "Vince due." is painted in Gothic letters.
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db ... &seite=589

[4+4] Sun+Moon, the card posted by Huck. No text on this card.
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/000 ... &seite=225

[5+6] top: "Lucas eva[n]gelista" (engraved text)
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/000 ... &seite=289

[1+5] (?)St. Thomas the apostle administering the host to the Indians. No text on this card. In il Castello dei Tarocchi, Andrea Vitali describes the scene as "Jesus administering the host to Prester John", but this interpretation does not seem to me to be consistent with the Latin text of the Chronicle. Wikipedia takes the image as a portrait of Prester John himself.
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db ... /image_468

[1+3] papal council. No text on this card. Since the engraving is too large, only the central part appears on the card.
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/000 ... &seite=326

The cards are based on woodcuts from the Chronicles, but they have been beautifully enriched with painted decorations and gilding. This technical mix is somehow similar to the Goldschmidt Tarot (according to Berti, "Storia dei Tarocchi", those gilded cards are also based on woodcuts), but in this "Nuremberg Chronicle Tarot" the background is not gilded: gold is used to highlight details, such as the halos, crowns etc.


Knowing nothing of dice games, I am puzzled by a few things:

* What was the use of the dice on the trumps? Were the results of two dice a completely ordered set that could be used to determine which trump was going to win on another trump in a standard tarot game?

* Connected to the previous question: was this deck used to play "standard tarot" or should we think that it was used to play dice games using cards instead of dice?

* Why is "Vince due" (wins two) written in Italian?

* What could possibly be the meaning of this statement?

Re: Schedel'sche Weltchronik

#13
marco wrote:Pen's discovery of the connection between Etteilla III and this book is really great! I think it would make an excellent subject for an IPCS paper :)
Indeed, it's a fine discovery in itself.
... but for the moment I would assume, that it not necessary must relate to the earlier production, which we meet with the 5 cards.

...
The cards are based on woodcuts from the Chronicles, but they have been beautifully enriched with painted decorations and gilding. This technical mix is somehow similar to the Goldschmidt Tarot (according to Berti, "Storia dei Tarocchi", those gilded cards are also based on woodcuts), but in this "Chronicle Tarot" the background is not gilded: gold is used to highlight details, such as the halos, crowns etc.
Hm, it's not clear, what you mean. Does Berti say, that the Goldschmidt cards are made from (earlier) woodcuts? Or does he know woodcuts, which meet the motifs (earlier or later woodcuts)? Or are the Goldschmidt cards painted on woodcut on paper?

Knowing nothing of dice games, I am puzzled by a few things:

* What was the use of the dice on the trumps? Were the results of two dice a completely ordered set that could be used to determine which trump was going to win on another trump in a standard tarot game?

* Connected to the previous question: was this deck used to play "standard tarot" or should we think that it was used to play dice games using cards instead of dice?

* Why is "Vince due" (wins two) written in Italian?

* What could possibly be the meaning of this statement?
"Vinci due" (wins twice) might relate to a game rule. Perhaps the deck was made during the begin of Maximilians reign (maybe 1493-1497), perhaps this double winning function for this card was intended to honor him. Bianca Maria's court was at the begin full of Italians, later (around 1500-1501) Maximilian drastically minimized her costs (and already before her position was endangered). From this situation an Italian "Vinci due" must not surprise. Generally Italy was a big market for the Schedel'sche Weltchronik. As I already said, the playing card deck might have served as an additional advertisement to sell the book.

We generally don't know, how Tarot was played in its beginning, possibly there more than one game, which was played with Trionfi cards. ... :-) ... for instance one game might have had some parallels to chess.
In the case of the Boiardo deck we hear, that the players were amused by the poem and somehow behave, as if this were divination texts (in the description of Viti).
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Schedel'sche Weltchronik

#14
Huck wrote: Hm, it's not clear, what you mean. Does Berti say, that the Goldschmidt cards are made from (earlier) woodcuts? Or does he know woodcuts, which meet the motifs (earlier or later woodcuts)? Or are the Goldschmidt cards painted on woodcut on paper?
In the description of the cards reproduced in his book, Berti writes they are "hand-painted xylography" (xilografia dipinta a mano). From the images, it is clear that the background is gilded. The analogy I see with the Nuremberg Chronicle deck is the presence of woodcut + hand-painting + gilding.

Re: Schedel'sche Weltchronik

#15
The day after I had read Hucks Trionfi news thread
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=345&start=80#p9455
where he posted an illustration of a mysterious sun and moon card from the book "Il Castello dei Tarocchi", I realized that, in my own reply to this I had jumped to the conclusion that these mysterious cards had necessarily been derived directly from the Weltchronik.
(For the purposes of website SEO, in the rest of this post I will refer to it as the Nuremberg Chronicle, since that is the title people outside of German or Latin speaking areas of the western world usually use when searching for it, and that title hasn't been used on this forum yet.)
I realized that in fact these cards and the Nuremberg Chronicle itself could share a common source of artistic inspiration. Returning to this thread (started by Marco to continue the discussion on the mysterious cards and the Nuremberg Chronicle independently of Huck's Trionfi News thread.), I saw that Huck had made a post here on Dec. 28 which contains copious illustrations (from Durer, the Splendor Solis, etc. ) demonstrating the ubiquity of this sun and moon illustration. Now returning again I see from Marco's research and apparent acquisiton of the "Castillo del Tarocchi" (Is this true Marco, did you get one already?) which started this whole thing, that there is some strong evidence to suggest, (but not prove) that the Nuremberg Chronicle is the source of the art for these cards (I suppose this must be discussed in detail by the authors of the book :) ). His comparisons of the illos in the book, with the illos in the Chronicle are a big help to me and everyone else who cannot yet acquire a copy of the "Il Castello dei Tarocchi".

A major turn here (and one which surely must be of interest even to the authors of "Il Castello dei Tarocchi" themselves) is the work of Pen, who posted first in Huck's Thread -
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=345&start=90#p9489
Thanks Huck, that's helpful. I wondered whether Etteilla had copied the images from the Liber Chronicarum or from the deck of cards. Are there only five cards in existence?
His post and one lengthier that follows, finds a very suggestive link between quite a few cards of the Etteilla III deck and the Nuremberg Chronicle. This was followed up on by Ross G. R. Caldwell
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=345&start=90#p9491
immediately after, in Huck's thread. Then continued here in this thread, where Huck himself posted some very very enlightening illos documenting Pen's list of correspondences -
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=638#p9494
I think this is really important. Though the Etteilla III is from the mid-19th Century, it is still a remarkable discovery. I hardly ever read any documentation on the sources for the art in Tarot cards. Here we have at least 2 decks of cards, one from late 15th-early 16th Century, the other from the 19th, whose 'trumps' have striking ( and I mean striking!) similarities to the illustrations of one of the most famous books in the world.
Now Marco, in this thread, has made statements that he finds some sort of similarity with the Nuremberg Chronicle and the Sola Busca. This third claim is not yet clear, to me, at least.

Certainly, having the Nuremberg Chronicle online is a major advance for this research. The internet is changing what is possible, and in who can participate in those possibilities. I think that all these various antique books and maps that institutions and libraries and universities around the world are putting up in high resolution, now that we have DSL and broadband :) is going to fuel a quantum leap in scholarship, knowledge, and the 21st Centuries ongoing worldwide cultural inflorescence, that will still look remarkable a thousand years from now (If we don't all blow each other to hell at the same time, of course:(
@Pen- Sister, you've made quite a discovery of your own. I hope you take it and run with it and someday have a paper or book of your own, just like the authors of "Il Castello dei Tarocchi"
http://trionfi.com/n/
Deliver me from reasons why you'd rather cry - I'd rather fly...
Jim Morrison - The Crystal Ship

Re: Schedel'sche Weltchronik

#16
Maybe I should make the point clear, that the 5 pictures accompanied an article of Andrea Vitali in Il Castello dei Tarocchi, "La Scala Mistica dei Tarocchi", p. 33-40, and it's already clear in the article, that all 5 pictures are from the Liber Chronicarum.
The cards are given as from "Collezione Pietro Alligo", and that's related to Lo Scarabeo.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Schedel'sche Weltchronik

#17
Thanx Huck, for confirming -
It's already clear in the article, that all 5 pictures are from the Liber Chronicarum
It is this idea that originally got me excited. That is real Tarot news. I hope Il Castello dei Tarocchi comes out in english so I can read all about it ! Right now, since I've been dabbling in various Renaissance studies for the last 5 years, I would love to learn Latin or Italian. But I will never have that time. I am dependent on translations, and always will be, I think.

I wonder if the same kind of scholarship can prove Pen's idea that Etteilla III is, at least in part, derived from the same Liber Chronicum, or an intermediary, as Ross G. R. Caldwell mentioned.
Deliver me from reasons why you'd rather cry - I'd rather fly...
Jim Morrison - The Crystal Ship

Re: Schedel'sche Weltchronik / Nuremberg Chronicle

#18
hoo wrote: (For the purposes of website SEO, in the rest of this post I will refer to it as the Nuremberg Chronicle, since that is the title people outside of German or Latin speaking areas of the western world usually use when searching for it, and that title hasn't been used on this forum yet.)
I have edited the title of the thread according to your suggestion.
hoo wrote: [Pen's] post and one lengthier that follows, finds a very suggestive link between quite a few cards of the Etteilla III deck and the Nuremberg Chronicle. This was followed up on by Ross G. R. Caldwell
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=345&start=90#p9491
immediately after, in Huck's thread. Then continued here in this thread, where Huck himself posted some very very enlightening illos documenting Pen's list of correspondences -
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=638#p9494
I think this is really important. Though the Etteilla III is from the mid-19th Century, it is still a remarkable discovery. I hardly ever read any documentation on the sources for the art in Tarot cards. Here we have at least 2 decks of cards, one from late 15th-early 16th Century, the other from the 19th, whose 'trumps' have striking ( and I mean striking!) similarities to the illustrations of one of the most famous books in the world.
Penelope's discovery is remarkable indeed. I think the visual parallel definitely proves that the Chronicle is the source of some Etteilla III Cards. Since the Chronicle is so ancient, I think it is likely that the influence was an indirect one, possibly through some art book about medieval woodcuts. Maybe Ross will find out more about this :)

The Castello dei Tarocchi deck directly reused some of the woodcuts from the book. BTW, il Castello dei Tarocchi only provides fine images of 5 of the cards. The brief discussion of the deck does not mention the presence of the dice, but hints to the existence of other cards (there should be some representing "cities").

As I have written above, I am not convinced that the illustration of [1+5] represents "Jesus administering the Eucharist to Prester John".
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db ... /image_468
The myth of Prester John is about a king that lived after the 12th century: I don't think that it was ever believed that John might have met with Jesus.

Here is what I can understand of the text of this passage of the Chronicle:
In India the most important name among the patriarchs is that of Presbyter John. In Ethiopia, the first was Matthew the Apostle, then the eunuch of Queen Candace. Thomas the Apostle converted India. Presbyter John was not only the pontiff of faith, but also a big emperor. It is said that under his empire there were 270 kings that paid tributes every year. In their kingdoms there are 124 archbishops. The capital of the empire and the church is the city of Bibrith. In the year 1120, the patriarch John, one of the most important of the Indians, went to Rome and told in the presence of Pope Callixtus and his cardinals that in India St. Thomas the Apostle administered every year the blessed sacrament to the people, granted to the worthy and withdrawn from the unworthy, in the city of Hulna.

So, I think the image represents St. Thomas the Apostle.
hoo wrote: Now Marco, in this thread, has made statements that he finds some sort of similarity with the Nuremberg Chronicle and the Sola Busca. This third claim is not yet clear, to me, at least.
I noticed that the Chronicle presents the same kind of encyclopedic universal history that we see in the Sola Busca deck. And that Roman consuls are presented with a visual pattern that also occurs in the Sola Busca deck. I think it is unlikely that there is an influence of this particular universal history on the Sola Busca deck, but it is likely that some similar text was of inspiration for SB. This hypothesis is weak and vague: nothing to do with the striking evidence of the "new" Castello dei Tarocchi deck and Pen's discovery about Etteilla III :)

Re: Schedel'sche Weltchronik / Nuremberg Chronicle

#19
After finding that Japeth from the Chronicle and Folie from Etteilla 111 were related, I was thinking that if I could find out that most, or better still all, of the Etteilla picture cards were related also, logic (possibly flawed :) ) might indicate that the deck had been used as source material for Etteilla 111. If this were the case, we'd have some idea what the missing cards possibly looked like.

I've been through the Nuremberg Chronicle again today, and found a couple of images I missed the first time. I'm sure that these two were inspired by the Chronicle, whether directly or indirectly. The influence is less obvious in the Etteilla marriage scene (page 262 of the Chronicle) than in the Judgement, but the poses of the figures, especially the hands and the way she's holding her shawl seem to indicate a strong connection.

There are some pages holding shields on page 440 of the Chronicle that are reminiscent of the Etteilla 111 Valet de Denier, and the Le Roi de Baton bears a remsemblance to one of the Kings on page 105 of the Chronicle, but not enough to warrant more than a mention.





Below is the image from page 598 of the Chronicle from which the detail above was taken (Simon Magus?).




Pen

Edited to add that the Magician may have been inspired by the same card from Etteilla.

He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy...

Re: Schedel'sche Weltchronik

#20
Nice work again, Pen.
hoo wrote:Thanx Huck, for confirming -
It's already clear in the article, that all 5 pictures are from the Liber Chronicarum
It is this idea that originally got me excited. That is real Tarot news.
... :-) ... nice, that you enjoy the News ... :-) ... I'm interested, what you say, when you meet the 5x14-theory ... well, it has already some proud age, but it's often new to somebody ...

marco wrote:So, I think the image represents St. Thomas the Apostle.
Reading the German text, I would say, that you're right with this. "Wie sanctus Thomas der apostel ierlich in der statt hulna in India gelegen dem volck das allerheilligst sakrament gebe"
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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