Re: Collection Fournier

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Yes is equal, but i dont know if this detail don't mean anything. The end of the papal staff seems to follow precise rules.

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Another topic. I finally found the color of the dress of guglielmitas. Its a very good document, with all the inquisitorial process.

Pietro Tamburini. Storia generale dell' Inquisizione. Volume 2. (pag. 14)


http://books.google.es/books?id=6BQPAAA ... &q&f=false

It was dark brown, almost black.
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: Collection Fournier

12
mmfilesi wrote: Another topic. I finally found the color of the dress of guglielmitas. Its a very good document, with all the inquisitorial process.

Pietro Tamburini. Storia generale dell' Inquisizione. Volume 2. (pag. 14)


http://books.google.es/books?id=6BQPAAA ... &q&f=false

It was dark brown, almost black.
vestidonegrio.jpg
Thanks Marcos, Moakley identified the dress as of Gugliemites but didn't give a reference, and I have search for a description but was not able to find one. So the colour was Morello (ie, brown, as the dark brown colour of Maremmano horses).

Re: Collection Fournier

13
How interesting. Robert O'Neill argues that the normal Umiliati habit was white -
http://www.tarot.com/about-tarot/librar ... l/manfreda
- but I didn't notice that most of his illustrations seem to show monks, not nuns.

In any case, Marcos' text clearly describes the colour. I have the trial records (Marina Benedetti, ed., Milano 1300: I processi inquisitoriali contro le devote e i devoti de santa Guglielma(Milan, Libri Scheiwiller, 1999), but hadn't thought to look for this detail.

I would have thought that bruna moreta was "light brown", but this says they wore "morello or a dark colour," in order to imitate Guglielma's style of dress.

This post will be updated later if I find it.
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Re: Collection Fournier

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Guglielma’s manner of dress, and that of her devotees.

Milan, Biblioteca Ambrosiana, ms. A. 227 inf., f. 11r.
Edition of Marina Benedetti, Milano 1300: I processi inquisitoriali contro le devote e i devoti de santa Guglielma (Milan, Libri Scheiwiller, 1999), pp. 142-145.

Dictum Andree Saramite

Andreas Saramita filius quondam Girardi Saramite, civitattis Mediolani Porte Cumane foris, comparuit coram suprascripto frate Raynerio de Pirovano inquisitore, et interrogatus ab ipso fratre Raynerio, sub iuramento et penis quibus tenetur inquisitionis officio obligatus, quare ipse Andreas et alii, qui erant de congregatione, conventiculo et devotione domine Guillelme, induebantur de moreto, respondit quia predicta domina Guillelma portabat vestes de bruna moreta et ideo, propter conformitatem ad vestes eius, induebantur de moreto comuniter omnes, ut viderentur omnes de eadem congregatione et devotione.

.MCCC., die mercurii .X. mensis augusti...


Deposizione di Andrea Saramita

Andrea Saramita figlio del fu Gerardo Saramita, della città di Milano fuori di Porta Comasina, è comparso davanti a frate Rainerio da Pirovano inquisitore, e, sotto giuramento e pene alle quali è obbligato per l’ufficio inquisitoriale, interrogato dall’inquisitore perché egli e gli altri che erano della congregazione, conventicola e devozione di domina Guglielma, si vestissero di “moreto”, risponde che tutti loro si vestivano comunemente di moreto per conformità alle vesti di Guglielma che portava vesti di moreto scuro, affinché tutti apparissero della stessa congregazione e devozione.

Nel giorno di mercoledì 10 agosto 1300...

Deposition of Andrea Saramita

Andrea Saramita, son of the late Gerardo Saramita, of the city of Milano outside the Comasina Gate, appeared before brother Rainerio da Pirovano, Inquisitor, and, under oath and penalty to which he was sworn by the Inquisitorial Office, was questioned by the Inquisitor why he and the others which were of the congregation, sect and devotion of the Lady Guglielma, dressed in “moreto”; he replied that all of them commonly dressed in moreto in order to conform to the dress of Guglielma who wore clothes of dark moreto, so that they would all be shown to be of the same congregation and devotion.

Wednesday, 10 August, 1300.
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Re: Collection Fournier

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What this shows is that the Guglielmite sect dressed differently from the Umiliati of which they were originally a part.

Thus O'Neill is right that Moakley was wrong to attribute the habit of the Visconti Sforza Popess to the Umiliati, but that it might indeed be appropriate for the Guglielmite sect, who wore dark brown.

I still don't think there is any reason to believe the card is supposed to show Maifreda da Pirovano, but it is interesting to learn of this twist, which will surely turn up in support of the claim sooner or later.
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Re: Collection Fournier

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I wrote to Bibat Arkeologia Fournier de Naipes Museoa. They are very friendly and Itziar Ruiz de Erentxun sent me a copy of the card %%- . It is a pleasure that the world has people like that.
papi_fournier.jpg papi_fournier.jpg Viewed 8658 times 45.48 KiB
© Bibat Arkeologia Fournier de Naipes Museoa

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still don't think there is any reason to believe...
I maintain a skeptical position. That is, I believe we should continue to investigate. Bianca was very religious. We need know more about the Abbazia dei Chiaravalle and its relationship with Bianca.

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbazia_di_Chiaravalle
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: Collection Fournier

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Thanks very much, Marcos! Lovely - it looks so much better, even at that resolution.

Image


She is wearing red papal slippers, this one with a rosette. It can be more clearly seen on the b/w version in Kaplan.
http://www.angelfire.com/space/tarot/slipper.html

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I wrote this way back in July, 2003 -
http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php? ... stcount=33
There *is* another 15th century hand-painted Papessa, often overlooked - bought by the Fournier museum in Milan in the early 1970s, she is now in Vittoria, Spain.

This Papessa is usually taken to be a copy of Bembo's, but there are notable differences, I've talked about one of them at -
http://www.angelfire.com/space/tarot/slipper.html

My own, inconclusive, analysis of the Bembo Papessa, is at
http://www.angelfire.com/space/tarot/papessa.html

I do take it that she is a potentially subversive figure, but I don't see the Bembo Papessa that way, although I do find the Fournier to be suggestive of Papessa Giovanna.

I believe the Papessa in general migrated through all of the three possible positions below Papa and above Bagatino, because a) she is a woman, and b) she is spiritual. Spiritual is above material, but woman is below man - so she is ambiguous, and has occupied all positions between the Conjurer and the highest male authority (in the various orders). In the end, I think the Tarot de Marseille order reflects a symmetrical view, which has material and spiritual male and female paired, mirror-like 01-10.

Her relationship to Manfreda is unproven, but attractive. But Bianca Maria Visconti-Sforza, for whom or by whose direction the deck was probably made, was a sincerely pious woman. I don't think we can read much heresy into this Papessa. She may represent an affirmation of a spiritual, pneumatic Church *within* the orthodox Church, represented by the Pope.

She could also be suggestive of St. Sophia, but her daughters Faith, Hope and Charity are missing. But in the Visconti di Modrone (Cary-Yale), those virtues are there, but the Papessa is missing - so maybe they were all part of the deck at some point, while the Bembo and later decks only took Sophia, who came to be an obvious pair with the Pope, hence Papessa.

I don't think Bembo's Papessa can be said to reflect Pope Joan, but for various reasons I think some artists (and players) must have seen the tarocchi Papessa as Papessa Giovanna. I think the Fournier slipper might be an allusion to her baby, and Fournier's changes to Bembo reflect a higher dignity for this Papessa, perhaps to recall Pope Joan. The woodcuts later in the century seem to reflect a "new" Pope Joan, not one who shamed the Roman Church, but one who is an alternative to it. In Rosenwald she holds the keys of Peter - I find this stunning. Perhaps it reflects the bust of Pope John VIII - whom the medieval chroniclers took to be Pope Joan - said to have been in Sienna Cathedral. On good authority, I must add.
It's nice on the museum's own colour image, you can see that she is wearing gloves with a cross on them as well, which you can't see in the b/w image.
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Re: Collection Fournier

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Great sumary of the cuestion, thanks Ross.

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I have many doubts. Try to explain.

a) PMB and Fournier. Maifreda is related? Is a "joke" of Bianca? Maybe. Further research is needed.

b) Popess Giovanna ... mmm ... I dont know. Boccaccio speaks about Giovanna and was fashionable in the fifteenth century, but I see a big problem:

If the relationship was so obvious as Dummett says, why not related the Papissa and Giovanna in any document of the time?

In any case it should be further investigated.

c) The observations of Robert, Marco and Ross about "two men" are very interesting. Anonymous Discorso and the bishop of the Cary sheet are very enigmatic. Further research is needed.

d) The hypothesis of the Faith is interesting, but I see a problem: Faith in the second position, below the other virtues? mmm ... .. This is very rare.

e) Kaplan's hypothesis that it represents the Church seemsme the strongest (the 01-10 explained by Ross)

f) Robert's hypothesis about the relationship of Barbie and Popess, shown by the footwear, is extraordinary.
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)
cron