SteveM wrote:
Also XIV century here is the Dance of Death at Clusone with figures wearing poulaines:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... detail.jpg

They look like boots, for a specific profession (look at the knee-pads - what is he?), not fashion-conscious poulaines.

From Milan Cathedral XV century:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... t-2009.jpg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... t-2009.jpg

I would put those frescoes in the 14th century.

But for the 15th century (at least after 1410), I can't find any evidence of anybody in Italy wearing them, except perhaps foreigners (foreign-looking musicians, for instance, are wearing poulaines in Cristoforo de Predis' illuminated De sphaera, around 1465).

One of the flute/drum players wears them, on another there is a harpist and also one of the couples. Here for example is the harpist and the couple. What identifies them as 'foreign'?

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8 ... .f1.langEN[/quote]

From the hat and clothing, I get the impression they are French or Burgundian. At least, they are specific to a genre or activity (i.e. as a stereotype perhaps), and are not showing daily common footwear of Italians, like that we see in the northern sources.

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote: I would put those frescoes in the 14th century.

I meant XIV century, twas a typo.

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
From the hat and clothing, I get the impression they are French or Burgundian. At least, they are specific to a genre or activity (i.e. as a stereotype perhaps), and are not showing daily common footwear of Italians, like that we see in the northern sources.

Hat and clothing is similar to other figures without poulaines, hats are of a type one sees commonly (but not exclusively) I agree in Burgundian paintings.

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
They look like boots, for a specific profession (look at the knee-pads - what is he?), not fashion-conscious poulaines.

They look like the very exagerated poulaines to me - and common working class folk wore them too (but there were laws about how long they could be depending upon class/status - and as he does not appear to be a person of high stature they do seem extraordinarily long for what I assume is a lowly position). Not sure about the knee attachment - read somewhere along the line that poulaines got so long they had to tied to attachments at the knees, but I think this is probably more related to his profession - I have looked at images such as labours of the months to see if he profession could be identified, but no luck so far.

SteveM wrote: Hat and clothing is similar to other figures without poulaines, hats are of a type one sees commonly I agree in Burgundian paintings.

They look different to me:


http://www.rosscaldwell.com/images/visc ... ldren1.jpg

Especially the broad puffed shoulders and tall round caps.

It looks like it has a strap and a heel to me:
To me, it does not look the same as the hose with the leather soles and pointy toes, just above.

Reece wrote:It looks like it has a strap and a heel to me:

detail patten.jpg

To me, it does not look the same as the hose with the leather soles and pointy toes, just above.

I tend to agree with Ross that he is wearing poulaines with pattens, but it isn't that clear and is debatable I suppose.

SteveM wrote: I tend to agree with Ross that he is wearing poulaines with pattens, but it isn't that clear and is debatable I suppose.

Do you really think it's debatable Steve?



How would you go about arguing that the Cary Sheet Bagatto is not wearing poulaines and pointy pattens?

No argument from me, I see the poulaines and pattens - but the monkey and his arm are clear to me too and I seem to recall plenty who believed that to be an illusion, and still may well do as far as I know.

Lorredan wrote:I have a particular interest in straw hats at the moment.
On the back is what has been described as a pack back on the possible fool of the Cary Yale sheet.
There is one glaring difference between Italian peasant hats and French ones.
There is this round bobble thingy in the center of French straw hats, that is not on Italian ones. It is the way they were made.
This is French.
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/heavenlycra ... rw957s.jpg

I think what is on the back is a hat- not a pack pack. 15th/16th Century pack packs looked very similar to what they do now with a bed roll on top.
This is an Italian peasant hat- later, but not much had changed.
http://nationalgallery.org.uk/paintings ... onths-june

You are right Lorredan. That is a hat, not a back-pack. Your example makes it pretty clear: In the CS, the parallel lines on the "object" do not make sense if we take it as a back-pack. And the central "button" is there! Have you read somewhere that this "bobble thing" is peculiar to French straw hats?

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote: How would you go about arguing that the Cary Sheet Bagatto is not wearing poulaines and pointy pattens?

I agree. The last example (Hasubuch 1480) is the best match: it also includes the top rim of the poulaines (that in the Bagat is V-shaped) as if they wore poulaines above lighter socks.

We have not found a single example of poulaines+wooden pattens in Italian art.

Fredrick III in Pinturicchio and the soldier in Matteo di Giovanni are somehow close, but they wear poulaines with leather sandals, not wooden pattens.
We have found some examples of Italian wooden pattens, but not with poulaines.

Lorredan wrote:I have a particular interest in straw hats at the moment.
On the back is what has been described as a pack back on the possible fool of the Cary Yale sheet.
There is one glaring difference between Italian peasant hats and French ones.
There is this round bobble thingy in the center of French straw hats, that is not on Italian ones. It is the way they were made.
This is French.
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/heavenlycra ... rw957s.jpg

I think what is on the back is a hat- not a pack pack. 15th/16th Century pack packs looked very similar to what they do now with a bed roll on top.
This is an Italian peasant hat- later, but not much had changed.
http://nationalgallery.org.uk/paintings ... onths-june

Well spotted Lorredan.

marco wrote:
We have not found a single example of poulaines+wooden pattens in Italian art.

The magicians pattens in landscape with magicians definitely looks wooden to me (2nd figure from the right):

http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/c ... index.html

click on image and magnify to 200% -

Still, I wouldn't argue the case until I could get to see a closer look.

I agree Ross, it is like the Monkey- it is no longer debatable.
What is also clear is that Italians knew the fashion after a similar fashion, but it seems an affectation, for men to have worn them.
The image of the Lute player in garden, when you colour the Cary Yale sheet- looks just like that.
I think somewhere it said that these poulaines and types of pattens are the longest running shoe fashion on record. 150 years in one shape or another.

oops just seen SteveM's post.
Yes I found a straw hat discussion- the Italians wove down to the brim, the French wove up from the brim to the crown and tied off, is as best I can describe it. Italians made hats like felt ones on a block like German ones. German hats had that hunters look to them like the ones on the table of the children of the planets- often with a long feather. Italians made finer straw hats earlier than the French and the English and whiter which was superior. it has been a fascinating journey- this look at fashion.
Do you mean to say there are some people who do not believe in the Monkey? Well I never. Maybe they need to be as blind as me and see things in inkblots and then use spectacles to confirm

~Lorredan