Re: Cary Sheet again

21
SteveM wrote:...and the inverse perspective of the bateleurs table as discussed in another thread.
Steve, I think it's very misleading of you to imply this as fact. It's extremely unlikely that the designers of the Tarot de Marseille had any knowledge of inverse perspective, let alone the technical ability to apply it correctly. This is surely obvious to any trained artist or art historian looking at those images of the bateleur's table.

Sorry to stray from what is a fascinating topic, but I couldn't let this pass without comment.

Pen
He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy...

Re: Cary Sheet again

22
Here are an example of poulaines but no pattens from a miniature of Guarino of Verona presenting Geography of Strabo c.1459

http://www.xtec.es/~fchorda/renaixe/miniatu.htm

By Bellini:
http://mini-site.louvre.fr/mantegna/acc ... n_2_4.html

Guarino da Verona:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guarino_da_Verona

Pen: inverse perspective was a common technique of medieval and byzantive art, there is no reason anyone trained or accustomed to byzantine art would not have applied it, or if not trained or more accustomed to modern western perpsective, tried to copy it and did a piss poor job of it being unfamiliar with the conventions of Byzantine perspective (but still getting things like the inverse perspective and oversize figures pretty much right). The table of the Cary-Yale bateleur is in inverse perspective too btw, do you think the artist of that was lacking in technical ability?

Re: Cary Sheet again

23
Thanks for the highlighted Cary Sheet Marco!

I'm puzzled by how you coloured the Bagatto's arm - you know it is firmly and absolutely established, and that no-one can contradict, that the top part is a monkey's hand, holding on to the shoulder of the magician ;)

Image

Image courtesy of Michael Hurst
marco wrote: When can we say that poulaines disappeared in France?
I haven't been able to pin down a date yet. I can't find any images of Louis XI or his court (1461-1483) wearing them, but I don't have a great selection.

On the other hand, in the Duchy of Burgundy they seem to have been very much in fashion through Philippe le Bon's time (1419-1467).


http://www.rosscaldwell.com/images/imag ... in1448.jpg

I'm trying to see if they carried on under his successor, Charles the Bold (1467-1477).

I would assume that anywhere poulaines were the fashion, they would also have pattens to match when circumstances demanded wearing them.

So as a rough guess, in France they stopped being worn around 1460, and in Burgundy (now north-eastern France) with the end of the Duchy in 1477. Judging by the Hausbuch, they were still popular in Germany (bordering Burgundy) in 1480. I can't confidently guess when they stopped being worn in Germany.
Image

Re: Cary Sheet again

24
SteveM wrote:Here are an example of poulaines but no pattens from a miniature of Guarino of Verona presenting Geography of Strabo c.1459

http://www.xtec.es/~fchorda/renaixe/miniatu.htm

By Bellini:
http://mini-site.louvre.fr/mantegna/acc ... n_2_4.html

Guarino da Verona:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guarino_da_Verona
Thanks Steve, I'd forgotten about that set. Yes, here in fact Guarino is presenting a copy to Jacopo Antonio Marcello, who in the second image is presenting it in turn to René d'Anjou.

Notice that none of the Italians are wearing them though (I assume the fellow standing in the back of the Rene picture is one of René's guys - the hats of the Italians are different (picture 1) from those of the Provençals/Angevins (picture 2)


http://www.rosscaldwell.com/images/imag ... uarino.jpg


http://www.rosscaldwell.com/images/imag ... lorene.jpg
Image

Re: Cary Sheet again

25
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:Thanks for the highlighted Cary Sheet Marco!

I'm puzzled by how you coloured the Bagatto's arm - you know it is firmly and absolutely established, and that no-one can contradict, that the top part is a monkey's hand, holding on to the shoulder of the magician ;)
:(|) ;)) :ymsmug:
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: Cary Sheet again

26
Steve wrote:
Pen: inverse perspective was a common technique of medieval and byzantive art, there is no reason anyone trained or accustomed to byzantine art would not have applied it, or if not trained or more accustomed to modern western perpsective, tried to copy it and did a piss poor job of it being unfamiliar with the conventions of Byzantine perspective (but still getting things like the inverse perspective and oversize figures pretty much right). The table of the Cary-Yale bateleur is in inverse perspective too btw, do you think the artist of that was lacking in technical ability?
Steve, I don't intend to get drawn into an off topic discussion. My comment was simply to point out that inverse perspective on the Tarot de Marseille Bateleur cards is not a proven fact, as your post implied.

Pen
He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy...

Re: Cary Sheet again

27
R.A. Hendley wrote:The Juggler's 'foreign' footwear could have been a deliberate device to paint the figure as a wandering showman, an outsider, someone to not be trusted.
The thought that the Bateleur could have been portrayed as the "exotic foreigner" via his clothing had crossed my mind, too. Must be the name, ;)

Re: Cary Sheet again

28
Reece wrote:
R.A. Hendley wrote:The Juggler's 'foreign' footwear could have been a deliberate device to paint the figure as a wandering showman, an outsider, someone to not be trusted.
The thought that the Bateleur could have been portrayed as the "exotic foreigner" via his clothing had crossed my mind, too. Must be the name, ;)
Yes, I thought so too; also, while it may have gone out of fashion, it may have been established as part of the costume for certain types of entertainers, such as jester and clowns with long pointy shoes.


From 1525 we have this landscape with magicians, I can’t get the detail but it looks like one of the figures is wearing long foot wear with wooden base:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ._1525.jpg
Girolamo di Tommaso seal, known as Girolamo Da Carpi (Ferrara, 1501 - Ferrara, August 1 of 1556). Italian painter. He was the son of Tommaso, a painter and decorator serving the court of the Duke of Este in Ferrara.
His apprenticeship in the workshop of Garofalo. Now as a freelance artist, he began working in his hometown of Ferrara, but by 1525 we find him at Bologna, decorating the sacristy of San Michele in Bosco in collaboration with Biagio Pupini and Giovanni Borghese. Around the same time an altarpiece painted the Madonna Enthroned with Saints (Gemäldegalerie, Dresden, c. 1525) for San Biagio in Bologna.
Returning to Ferrara collaborated with Dosso Dossi and Garofalo in various orders of the Este. Girolamo became the architect for Julius IIIin 1550 and oversaw the renovation of Belvedere Palace. Again in Ferrara, he was commissioned to expansion of the Castello Estense.
It seems that before his stay in Bologna, visited Rome, where he could admire the work of Giulio Romano, who profoundly influenced.Through his influence developed a smooth, classical and endowed with a strong color.
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girolamo_da_Carpi
Pen: the bateleurs table on the cary-yale is in inverse perspective, that is a fact : whether it is so by accident or design and what significance it may have, if any, is of course a matter of opinion.

Re: Cary Sheet again

30
SteveM wrote:
SteveM wrote:
From 1525 we have this landscape with magicians, I can’t get the detail but it looks like one of the figures is wearing long foot wear with wooden base:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ._1525.jpg
You can magnify it up to 200% here:

http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/c ... index.html
Thanks Steve. That's a very interesting fantasy painting, that reminds me of Breughels and Bosch. I can't see what he's wearing on his feet though - I wouldn't want to claim it as proof of anything.
Image
cron