Yves Le Marseillais wrote:YLM
The Chafard is pretty much a cousin of the Dodal/Payen type isn't it?
http://fukuoka.cool.ne.jp/hanno/SS2_2.jpgIf anything though.. it shows that the Tarot de Marseille I was still travelling around.
Hello Robert,
This two decks with different Tarot de Marseille styles were living in a close period of time:
Pierre Madenié dated 1709
Joseph Chafard (Marseille 1747 so).
So order who says Tarot de Marseille 1 (Dodal, Payen if I remenber well) predate Tarot de Marseille 2 (Conver, Chosson and... Madenié) is contrary to Time location of Joseph Chaffard (Made in Marseille in 1747) who effectively is a cousin of Dodal/Payen.
No ?
I got Chaffard in hand (and I did not clean this hand for a week ha ha!!
)
Yves
As we both know, the dates can be confusing... especially if you think things progressed in order.
The issue, as I see it, is that the decks like the Payen/Dodal, and I would include the Noblet and the Vieville, have certain iconographic details in common. These details, as a group, put the "Tarot de Marseille I" at least in to the mid 1600s. The earliest Tarot de Marseille II would be the deck we call the Chosson, if indeed it really is from the 1600s, next in line is the Madenié at 1709. So the Tarot de Marseille I would seem as a group to predate the Tarot de Marseille II as a group. Add on to that that the similarities between the Cary Sheet that match the Tarot de Marseille match the Tarot de Marseille I not the Tarot de Marseille II, and assuming that the Cary Sheet is correctly dated to the early 1500s, then that gives the Tarot de Marseille I an even older history. I would also suggest that because the Tarot de Marseille I seems to have spread into the Besançon and the Belgian, that too adds weight for it being older.
So while the Chaffard is a late deck, it is based on the same type of deck as the Payen/Dodal, a Tarot de Marseille I. Even the Drago which is very late still has Tarot de Marseille I iconography.
I think this is not a final word. We know so little and what I suggest above is a delicate web that could fall apart with little effort, so I say I simply suspect that this is the case and continue to look. As we know, decks that mix both styles also became popular, so for separating out the histories and tracing them back can be extra complicated. Even classifying Tarot de Marseille I and Tarot de Marseille II is probably not a real classification, but for me, for now, it works while I continue to try to map out the sequences.
whow !! nice looking.
