Re: Dating the François Chosson Tarot?

145
I think François Chosson Tarot was believed to be the oldest Tarot de Marseille deck known to have been made in Marseilles. It was officially classified by the historians as being of unknown origin. the date written on the Two of Coins was 1672, which made it the oldest Tarot de Marseille deck known to have been made in Marseilles.

The date of the oldest Marseilles-made deck of Tarot de Marseille was again rolled back to 1608 due to my intervention and following the subsequent deductions of Professor Robert O’Neill. Until then, the date had been fixed at 1760. This made close to two centuries of difference, and the gap between the dates of the oldest Italian and Marseillan decks was thus considerably narrowed.

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Last edited by macaroon on 05 Oct 2012, 16:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dating the François Chosson Tarot?

146
macaroon wrote:I think François Chosson Tarot was believed to be the oldest Tarot de Marseille deck known to have been made in Marseilles. It was officially classified by the historians as being of unknown origin. the date written on the Two of Coins was 1672, which made it the oldest Tarot de Marseille deck known to have been made in Marseilles.

The date of the oldest Marseilles-made deck of Tarot de Marseille was again rolled back to 1608 due to my intervention and following the subsequent deductions of Professor Robert O’Neill. Until then, the date had been fixed at 1760. This made close to two centuries of difference, and the gap between the dates of the oldest Italian and Marseillan decks was thus considerably narrowed.

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... welcome to the Forum, macaroon

"The date of the oldest Marseilles-made deck of Tarot de Marseille was again rolled back to 1608 due to my intervention and following the subsequent deductions of Professor Robert O’Neill. "
... is a quote of a web page of Phillippe Camoin.

http://en.camoin.com/tarot/Francois-Cho ... Tarot.html

Are you Phillippe Camoin?
If yes, why did you date it to 1608?
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Dating the François Chosson Tarot?

148
Macaroon is a real life person. I was hesitant to approve the membership request, but he/she wrote to me asking for permission to join. The above was copied and pasted from Camoin's site, as Huck noted, so on the verge of spamming. We'll assume the best for now and hope that macaroon realises that there is no need for that type of behaviour and instead, read the threads and participate in the conversations. We'll see.

Re: Dating the François Chosson Tarot?

149
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote: 23 Apr 2008, 19:51 A further point about the 2 of Deniers is that the name Chosson has smaller and thicker letters than name François. Also, the name "Chosson" does not curve properly in relation to the curve of the banner, unlike the elegant and properly-fitted "François."

I guess that the name "François" is the original 1672 name, and that "Chosson" was added later (old name cut out, new name glued in). The old name then must have been "Sellon". Two of the Sellon family have the middle name "François" - Jean-François and Claude-François. Since a tradition among French families is to give the son(s) the middle name of the father, I imagine that "François Sellon" was the founder of the house and his presumed son Guillaume is the engraver.

Ross
The recent publication of the G S Chosson tarot reproduction by Tarot Sheet Revival [Sullivan Hismans] reflects the increasing acceptance of the 1672 dating for Chosson's woodblocks and the probable identity of the initials "G S" with Guillaume Sellon. Since the last posting in this thread from 2011, public access to increasing amounts of digitized archives has allowed us to trace in far greater detail the generations & relations of cardmaking families from many regions through notary and parish records.

In the case of the Sellon family of cardmakers, we now know that the Sellon generations were active in Marseille from prior to the 16th century and continued into the 18th. From the beginning of the 17th century we have:

Maitre Cartier Guillaume Sellon I marries Anne Auphant in 1605;
birth of their son Jean Sellon c1606 [Guillaume Sellon marries Anne Lieutaud in 1607, so presumably Anne Auphant died shortly after the birth of Jean];

[with Anne Lieutaud, Guillaume has a daughter Marguerite Sellon who marries the Maitre Cartier Philippe Vachier in 1632, she dies young [without children?] & widower Philippe Vachier marries Marguerite Torcaty in 1637]

- Jean Sellon marries Anne Artufel in 1632 with whom he has two sons,

---- Guillaume Sellon II [b1632], marries Marguerite Fabre in 1651, and they have two sons
------ Francoise Sellon, marries Anne Juge in 1681, & Anne Billon in 1720

------ Simon Sellon [d1740], marries Elizabeth Audibert in 1699, and they have a son
-------- Claude Francois Sellon [b1705] marries Marianne Vachier [1702-1740], the granddaughter of Phillipe Vachier by by his 2nd marriage, in 1737

---- Jean Sellon II, marries Marguerite Barthalot in 1662, they have a son
------ Guillaume Sellon III, marries Anne Feraud in 1694.

The Phillipe Vachier Tarot de Marseille Type I deck of 1637 [if genuine], and the Guillaume/Francoise Sellon Tarot de Marseille Type II deck of 1672, both from Marseille, are the earliest surviving complete decks of their types currently known.
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Re: Dating the François Chosson Tarot?

150
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote: 23 Apr 2008, 19:31
Looking in D'Allemagne for known cardmakers with the initials GS, we don't find too many, or not in the right dates, but there is a "Guilhen Sallonetz" in Marseille in 1662.

Guilhen Sallonetz is mentioned with someone who seems to be his father or brother, Jacques Sallonetz, at the same time (1662).

Further in the list, there are others - Guillaume Sellon (1676-1715), Jacques Sellon (1676-1708), along with Jean-François Sellon (1676-1688) Antoine Sellon (1713-1715), and Claude-François Sellon (1730) - all in Marseille.

I am guessing that the names Sallonetz and Sellon are two forms of the same name, one in Provençal, and one in French. "Guilhen" is a Provençal form of "Guillaume" (although "Jacques" is pure French in both cases). So we are dealing with a family business that is attested from 1662-1730. Perhaps Chosson bought it after the final Sellon retired.

Ross
Another branch to my map above:

Guillaume Sellon [Cartier] & Anne Lieutard m1607
# Marguerite Sellon [dies before 1637] & Philippe Vachier m1632
# Jacques Sellon, Travailer [labourer?] & Jaumette Giramon m1650:
#### Antoine Sellon [Mariner] & Claudine Guilloun m1675, & Therese CAMOIN m1706
#### Claire Sellon & Thomas Linchon m1678
#### Jacques Sellon [Cartier] & Anne Espanet m1694;
#### Guillaume Sellon & Marianne Mazet m1695.