Re: Dating the François Chosson Tarot?

#131
Hello all crew,

Well, for me the main thing after all is that :

Pierre Madenié dated 1709
"François Chosson" deck date between 1709 and 1760
Nicolas Conver dated 1760

Knowing that cardmakers sometimes took opportunity to buy woodblocks (and other materials) from other workshop whose owner retired from the market and so they did not engraved personnaly (not all carmakers were engravers don't forget this); Ross hypothesis with Guillaume Sellon/Seton origine is cceptable for me too.

More generaly speaking, I have the feeling that period from let say 1680 till 1750 was a great period for creativity and quality in Tarot production.

I wish I get some Marseille cardmakers from this period (I have 4 cards only I estimate from this period).
Joseph Chafard (Marseille 1747 so) is interesting too.
Rochus Schar (Swiss 1750) also

I estimate that if one have been able to discover decks from 1672 or 1650 we are able to find decks from this period.

Just a matter of Time and... Destiny.

Salutations from shiny Marseille 8-)

YLM
Personne n'est au dessus de l'obligation de dire la vérité.
Nobody is above obligation to tell truth.

Re: Dating the François Chosson Tarot?

#132
Yves Le Marseillais wrote:Hello all crew,

Well, for me the main thing after all is that :

Pierre Madenié dated 1709
"François Chosson" deck date between 1709 and 1760
Nicolas Conver dated 1760
Yes, me too. That's what I would say.
Yves Le Marseillais wrote: Knowing that cardmakers sometimes took opportunity to buy woodblocks (and other materials) from other workshop whose owner retired from the market and so they did not engraved personnaly (not all carmakers were engravers don't forget this); Ross hypothesis with Guillaume Sellon/Seton origine is cceptable for me too.
Right, I'm perfectly fine with having the earlier date for the original woodblocks. Ross' hypothesis certainly seems reasonable enough.
Yves Le Marseillais wrote: More generaly speaking, I have the feeling that period from let say 1680 till 1750 was a great period for creativity and quality in Tarot production.

I wish I get some Marseille cardmakers from this period (I have 4 cards only I estimate from this period).
Joseph Chafard (Marseille 1747 so) is interesting too.
Rochus Schar (Swiss 1750) also

I estimate that if one have been able to discover decks from 1672 or 1650 we are able to find decks from this period.

Just a matter of Time and... Destiny.

Salutations from shiny Marseille 8-)

YLM
The Chafard is pretty much a cousin of the Dodal/Payen type isn't it?
http://fukuoka.cool.ne.jp/hanno/SS2_2.jpg

If anything though.. it shows that the Tarot de Marseille I was still travelling around.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Dating the François Chosson Tarot?

#133
YLM[/quote]
The Chafard is pretty much a cousin of the Dodal/Payen type isn't it?
http://fukuoka.cool.ne.jp/hanno/SS2_2.jpg

If anything though.. it shows that the Tarot de Marseille I was still travelling around.[/quote]


Hello Robert,

This two decks with different Tarot de Marseille styles were living in a close period of time:

Pierre Madenié dated 1709
Joseph Chafard (Marseille 1747 so).

So order who says Tarot de Marseille 1 (Dodal, Payen if I remenber well) predate Tarot de Marseille 2 (Conver, Chosson and... Madenié) is contrary to Time location of Joseph Chaffard (Made in Marseille in 1747) who effectively is a cousin of Dodal/Payen.

No ?

I got Chaffard in hand (and I did not clean this hand for a week ha ha!! :lol: )

Yves
Personne n'est au dessus de l'obligation de dire la vérité.
Nobody is above obligation to tell truth.

Re: Dating the François Chosson Tarot?

#134
Yves Le Marseillais wrote:YLM
The Chafard is pretty much a cousin of the Dodal/Payen type isn't it?
http://fukuoka.cool.ne.jp/hanno/SS2_2.jpg

If anything though.. it shows that the Tarot de Marseille I was still travelling around.


Hello Robert,

This two decks with different Tarot de Marseille styles were living in a close period of time:

Pierre Madenié dated 1709
Joseph Chafard (Marseille 1747 so).

So order who says Tarot de Marseille 1 (Dodal, Payen if I remenber well) predate Tarot de Marseille 2 (Conver, Chosson and... Madenié) is contrary to Time location of Joseph Chaffard (Made in Marseille in 1747) who effectively is a cousin of Dodal/Payen.

No ?

I got Chaffard in hand (and I did not clean this hand for a week ha ha!! :lol: )

Yves
As we both know, the dates can be confusing... especially if you think things progressed in order.

The issue, as I see it, is that the decks like the Payen/Dodal, and I would include the Noblet and the Vieville, have certain iconographic details in common. These details, as a group, put the "Tarot de Marseille I" at least in to the mid 1600s. The earliest Tarot de Marseille II would be the deck we call the Chosson, if indeed it really is from the 1600s, next in line is the Madenié at 1709. So the Tarot de Marseille I would seem as a group to predate the Tarot de Marseille II as a group. Add on to that that the similarities between the Cary Sheet that match the Tarot de Marseille match the Tarot de Marseille I not the Tarot de Marseille II, and assuming that the Cary Sheet is correctly dated to the early 1500s, then that gives the Tarot de Marseille I an even older history. I would also suggest that because the Tarot de Marseille I seems to have spread into the Besançon and the Belgian, that too adds weight for it being older.

So while the Chaffard is a late deck, it is based on the same type of deck as the Payen/Dodal, a Tarot de Marseille I. Even the Drago which is very late still has Tarot de Marseille I iconography.

I think this is not a final word. We know so little and what I suggest above is a delicate web that could fall apart with little effort, so I say I simply suspect that this is the case and continue to look. As we know, decks that mix both styles also became popular, so for separating out the histories and tracing them back can be extra complicated. Even classifying Tarot de Marseille I and Tarot de Marseille II is probably not a real classification, but for me, for now, it works while I continue to try to map out the sequences.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

JOSEPH CHAFARD DECK BACK

#136
EUGIM wrote:Hello Yves... ( So hell-off )
If you don t mind,could show to us the back card of Chafard ?

Common Yves you empire will not fall mon ami for this !!!

8-x
Hello Eugim,

I am very pleased to see you back to the Club. :ymhug:
You were only in Purgatory and now you are clean and with a little circle above you head O:-) whow !! nice looking.

I can't shows a back card of Chafard for legal reasons but will see how to informs you.
I.e scanning page of my Catalogue edited bu Museum where back is photographied and then stick it here.

Be patient coz I am overbooked.

Salute Angel face :ymparty:

Yves
Personne n'est au dessus de l'obligation de dire la vérité.
Nobody is above obligation to tell truth.

1872 ?

#138
* Times ago OnePotato,did an excellent analysis regarding the Chosson date.
He called ours attention about the left border at the top of the " c ".

- The Ross and Yves crossed epees regarding Chosson work time.

- Just for me is an 8
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

Re: Dating the François Chosson Tarot?

#139
I think the evidence given in this thread is pretty convincing for a dating of 1672. As far as I know there is absolutely no evidence to indicate a dating of 1872, (well over a hundred years after any mention of Chosson in the 1700s (I'm thinking there is a reference in Kaplan, but no time to verify at the moment)). Is there any evidence to date it 1872, other than your desire to do so, that might argue the point?
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

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