Dating the François Chosson Tarot?

#1
Is the François Chosson the oldest existing "Tarot de Marseille II" style (a predecessor of the Conver) Tarot ??

Here is the Two of Coins:
Image


So, is that 1672 or not? What else could it be? What are the arguments for and against dating the Chosson as such?
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Dating the François Chosson Tarot?

#2
Well I would not like to go against experts, but I have been fooling around with a calligraphy pen, and I do not think there is enough room for the curl of the top of a six 1-6-7-2 and it does not allow for that tiny little blob of ink that could be the ending of closing circle of a 5 which is not like our five now(open at the left). It was a broken circle- but still a circle like the 6 but the upward stroke is straight then out straight (like a corner angle) to make the 5. There was a line through the 5 on the right lower curve. So it is possible that the erased numeral could be a 5- making it 1572.
You are a far better expert in saying what are the correspondent components to make it this much earlier- but from an amateur point of view the florals are exactly the same on the Two Coins of the Pierrie Madenie Tarot of 1709 (K page 315 Vol II) I cannot make it into an 8 no matter how I try. So it seems to me to be a 17th century deck, even if it was a very cramped 6 on the card. It does not look like the examples of 16th Century deck cards (as per Kaplan)
Tell us more about what you think Robert.
~Lorredan~
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: Dating the François Chosson Tarot?

#4
Off-topic comments and those of limited interest, including comments which were largely misconstrued
and those expressing merely my personal opinions, have been removed as unhelpful. My apologies.
We are either dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants, or we are just dwarfs.

Re: Dating the François Chosson Tarot?

#5
I think it has to be 1672 as well. Here is the argument I made on Aeclectic a few months ago -

I think, if you look at the close-up at JC Flornoy's site
http://letarot.com/dossiers-chauds/...-1672-1872.html
the "c" must be part of a "6".

Looking closely, you can see an ascending black line on the left section of the c, where the round part joins it.

In the border, where the top of the 6 would have been, there is a discolouration/lightening of the ink, indicating that the surface is lower there than in the rest of the border. This shows that something broke away, or there is wear there. It is curved exactly where we would expect the top of the 6 to be, if we finished the line.

For the "mistake" part, Ph. Camoin is adamant that it cannot be a mistake, but the card engraver was not particularly careful, as you can see from his engraved letters at Rom's site -
http://tarotchoco.quebecblogue.com/Tarot de Marseille- ... -honneurs/

In the first card, he has made an inversion - "VALET DE DENIESR"

It is not impossible that the engraver made a mistake, but I think the date is 1672 and the story is more complicated.

Chosson was not the engraver, as you can see by looking at the initials on the Chariot, "GS". This is where the engraver usually put his initials.

Looking in D'Allemagne for known cardmakers with the initials GS, we don't find too many, or not in the right dates, but there is a "Guilhen Sallonetz" in Marseille in 1662.

Guilhen Sallonetz is mentioned with someone who seems to be his father or brother, Jacques Sallonetz, at the same time (1662).

Further in the list, there are others - Guillaume Sellon (1676-1715), Jacques Sellon (1676-1708), along with Jean-François Sellon (1676-1688) Antoine Sellon (1713-1715), and Claude-François Sellon (1730) - all in Marseille.

I am guessing that the names Sallonetz and Sellon are two forms of the same name, one in Provençal, and one in French. "Guilhen" is a Provençal form of "Guillaume" (although "Jacques" is pure French in both cases). So we are dealing with a family business that is attested from 1662-1730. Perhaps Chosson bought it after the final Sellon retired.

Thus I think we are dealing with the same people, and that there is a "GS" cardmaker in Marseille at the right time. So, it could be Guillaume Sellon who made the cards; it could be that Chosson inherited or bought the plates (this has happened before), and changed the name on the two of Deniers to reflect that.

The date problem might reflect either wear on the old plates (maybe 60 or 70 years old when Chosson got them), or a very early weakness because the engraver corrected the top of the 6 from going into the margin by recarving it a little smaller and thinner - it thus might have broken off very early.

There is a problem stylistically though. This Tarot de Marseille is "TdMII" by Depaulis' taxonomy - the Cupid is going to the right as is not blindfolded, the figures in the Sun are two little boys, not a boy and a girl (or youths of opposite gender), the figure in the World is also a "sexy" female, etc. (like in Conver).

So if this tarot was engraved in Marseille in 1672, then it is a very early example of the Tarot de Marseille II type.

Finally, I do think the date was 1672, and the plates are older than Chosson.

Ross
Image

Re: Dating the François Chosson Tarot?

#6
A further point about the 2 of Deniers is that the name Chosson has smaller and thicker letters than name François. Also, the name "Chosson" does not curve properly in relation to the curve of the banner, unlike the elegant and properly-fitted "François."

I guess that the name "François" is the original 1672 name, and that "Chosson" was added later (old name cut out, new name glued in). The old name then must have been "Sellon". Two of the Sellon family have the middle name "François" - Jean-François and Claude-François. Since a tradition among French families is to give the son(s) the middle name of the father, I imagine that "François Sellon" was the founder of the house and his presumed son Guillaume is the engraver.

Ross
Image

Re: Dating the François Chosson Tarot?

#7
Off-topic comments and those of limited interest, including comments which were largely misconstrued
and those expressing merely my personal opinions, have been removed as unhelpful. My apologies.
We are either dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants, or we are just dwarfs.

Re: Dating the François Chosson Tarot?

#8
OnePotato wrote:Here is what I see...
(I just filled in some missing bits.)
(I also see another version without the ball at the end of the 6-tail.)
Perhaps the Historians have some documentary evidence that will make it into a "7"?

Image
amazing work on that 6, OnePotato. Wow, it looks flawless.
"...he wanted to illustrate with his figures many Moral teachings, and under some difficulty, to bite into bad and dangerous customs, & show how today many Actions are done without goodness and honesty, and are accomplished in ways that are contrary to duty and rightfulness."

Re: Dating the François Chosson Tarot?

#9
prudence wrote:
OnePotato wrote:Here is what I see...
(I just filled in some missing bits.)
(I also see another version without the ball at the end of the 6-tail.)
Perhaps the Historians have some documentary evidence that will make it into a "7"?

...
amazing work on that 6, OnePotato. Wow, it looks flawless.
Yes indeedy...

...so

what are you like with £2o notes ... :twisted:
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Dating the François Chosson Tarot?

#10
Aside from the crooked baseline, I was going to mention the differences in character details between "Francois" and "Chosson".
You can see it most obviously in the "o's"
In "FRANCOIS", the counter (interior space) of the "O" is a clean oval.
In "CHOSSON", the counters of the "O's" are pointed at the top and bottom.
The serifs are also slightly finer in "Francois"
Two different hands.

One might do well to compare the type on other titles in the rest of the deck.

(A side note: this image has already been retouched. Personally, I'd really prefer the original "messy" version.)

Anyway, here's an alternate version for Mr. Caldwell...

Image
I am not a cannibal.

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