Re: Lombardische Trieste

#11
Pen wrote:Robert, I love your observations and comparisons.

I wonder, can we date this deck with any accuracy? Where does it stand in the Tarot de Marseille chronology?
... :-) ... if you would be able to follow links, you would know, that the deck is estimated ca. 1790 by the owner, Deutsches Spielkartenmuseum
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Lombardische Trieste

#12
But surely that's not all the story. Just because this sample of the deck comes from 1790 doesn't indicate, for instance, when this style broke off from the Tarot de Marseille?

I think Pen asks all the right questions.

I still don't know that anyone has figured out the chronology of the Tarot de Marseille "I" and "II", much less the variations like the Belgian, Besançon, and these Italian versions.

It's clear to me that this deck contains a combination of "Tarot de Marseille I" and "Tarot de Marseille II", so can we figure out when that break occurred and have a better understanding of when this design went back to Italy with these modifications?

More and more, I'm inclined to think that the Tarot de Marseille I was the Italian version that spread into other regions like Belgium and France, and then adaptations of it appeared based on a redrawing, the Tarot de Marseille II, which spread later.

Personally, I'm still completely baffled as to when this happened and the specifics of it. What I do recognise is that the Tarot de Marseille I pattern matches with the Cary Sheet, and is seen spreading into the Belgian and Besançon, although there are examples of Tarot de Marseille II influence there as well; and that the Tarot de Marseille I seems to have continued to develop in Italy and shows up in a modified form in the later Italian decks based on the Tarot de Marseille. The Drago is a great example of the Italian Tarot de Marseille I style surviving, there is no other way to explain the Knight of Batons.

Honestly, I don't think anyone has this figured out at all, so I very much appreciate the input of everyone who participates in these threads.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Lombardische Trieste

#13
robert wrote:But surely that's not all the story. Just because this sample of the deck comes from 1790 doesn't indicate, for instance, when this style broke off from the Tarot de Marseille?

I think Pen asks all the right questions.

I still don't know that anyone has figured out the chronology of the Tarot de Marseille "I" and "II", much less the variations like the Belgian, Besançon, and these Italian versions.

The Drago is a great example of the Italian Tarot de Marseille I style surviving, there is no other way to explain the Knight of Batons.

Honestly, I don't think anyone has this figured out at all, so I very much appreciate the input of everyone who participates in these threads.
I agree Robert. I think it would be worthwhile for someone who has all these details about the various extra-Italian (Tarot de Marseille-like) decks to put them on a chronological/geographical chart, and with the telling details mapped with arrows - perhaps something might be found. I think you could do it - it might take a whole wall in your study, however.
Image

Re: Lombardische Trieste

#14
"Fabrica di Angelo Valla in Trieste."
Wikipedia wrote:After two centuries of war against the nearby major power, the Republic of Venice (which occupied it briefly from 1369 to 1372), the burghers of Trieste petitioned Leopold III of Habsburg, Duke of Austria to become part of his domains. The agreement of cessation was signed in October 1382, in St. Bartholomew's church in the village of Šiška (apud Sisciam), today one of the city quarters of Ljubljana. The citizens, however, maintained a certain degree of autonomy up until the 17th century.

Trieste became an important port and trade hub. In 1719, it was made a free port within the Habsburg Empire by Emperor Charles VI, and remained a free port until 1 July 1891. The reign of his successor, Maria Theresa of Austria, marked the beginning of a flourishing era for the city.

....

Trieste was occupied by French troops three times during the Napoleonic Wars, in 1797, 1805 and in 1809.
Perhaps in 1797 an Italian card producer detected his love to France and saw a new form of business at the changed market.

Re: Lombardische Trieste

#15
Huck wrote:
.. :-) ... if you would be able to follow links, you would know, that the deck is estimated ca. 1790 by the owner, Deutsches Spielkartenmuseum
Kaplan gives only the same single date of 1790 as Deutsches Spielkartenmuseum for Angelo Valla, yet a family cardmaking business could span possibly 100 years or more, although it's unlikely that a set of wooden blocks could hold out for anything like that long - they'd have to be copied. Tax stamps are a boon, but have only limited value if (as is usually the case), few examples have survived. With an odd deck like this one it'd be useful to have a broad range of possible production dates rather than just the one.

Ross wrote:
I think it would be worthwhile for someone who has all these details about the various extra-Italian (Tarot de Marseille-like) decks to put them on a chronological/geographical chart, and with the telling details mapped with arrows - perhaps something might be found.


A brilliant idea - at the moment it's so hard to picture where all these different Tarot de Marseille examples fit into the historical picture.

Pen
He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy...

Re: Lombardische Trieste

#16
Pen wrote:... yet a family cardmaking business could span possibly 100 years or more ....
Hm. I would think, when a card maker is known only by one date, then it's probably NOT a house which spanned 100 years or more. I would assume, that 10% of the card makers made 90 % of the decks and 90 % of the card makers, which endured not very long, made the other 10 % decks. Possibly the same relation with 20% and 80% has more reality, but ... businesses have their logic.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Lombardische Trieste

#17
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:I agree Robert. I think it would be worthwhile for someone who has all these details about the various extra-Italian (Tarot de Marseille-like) decks to put them on a chronological/geographical chart, and with the telling details mapped with arrows - perhaps something might be found. I think you could do it - it might take a whole wall in your study, however.
Thanks for the vote of confidence Ross.

I'll put my cards on the table. I never paid much attention to the Tarot de Marseille until I started hearing many others discussing the Tarot de Marseille as "THE Tarot", as if it was the original tarot, and the one that defined all other tarots. The general idea was that the Visconti tarot decks were an anomaly - luxury items created for the wealthy, based on the Tarot de Marseille, but lacking the inherent truth and vitality that allowed the Tarot de Marseille to stand out as unique among its peers.

So I started looking at the Tarot de Marseille as if it were the "Ur" tarot and would reveal the "true" origins of the tarot.

Instead, the more I studied the Tarot de Marseille versions, and other similar decks, the more I came to believe that the Tarot de Marseille was just another version of many versions of a developing and changing Tarot; and that even within the group, several different "families" could be identified. The "Compare and Contrast" threads at AT were started by Jean-Michel and myself to take a look at the differences between the Tarot de Marseille styles and see what we as a group could determine. The studies were never completed, but I did walk away with a strong sense that the Tarot de Marseille I was most likely the oldest version, and that it had spread into various regions. I also was aware that it was very difficult to exclude the Tarot de Marseille II from the discussion as it seemed to ALSO reflect some earlier traditions, perhaps just as old as those in the Tarot de Marseille I.

So I sat, with about 20 different versions of the early decks in front of me and tried to make some sense of it. I think the only way to get a broad understanding of the different types of decks is to ground yourself in what differentiates the Tarot de Marseille I and the Tarot de Marseille II, and then when you see those attributes in other decks you can sort of place them in context. Perhaps the best way to go about this is to start a new thread comparing the Tarot de Marseille I and Tarot de Marseille II, and explore it together as a group, so that we have a ground to build upon, and then consider the Belgian, Besançon, and Italian versions? I'll be happy to set up an area just for this purpose, as, it is my favourite aspect of exploring these early decks and, I think, can lead to a greater understanding of the designs of individual cards in later versions. Of course, to discuss these differences, several early decks, especially the Vieville, Noblet, Dodal, and Chosson/Conver need to be taken into consideration, as well as the early sheets, as a means of trying to trace some sort of ancestry.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Lombardische Trieste

#18
Thanks for starting the wonderful Compare and Contrast Robert - I'd been reading them over at AT, but they'll be easier to find here.

I keep looking through these images - they seem so different from the style of the other Tarot de Marseille, softer, more feminine, the faces sweeter. Could we be looking at the work of a woman artist here? I can't find any additional information about Angela Valla or his printshop - just that single date and place of 1790/Trieste in Kaplan and on the deck owners' site. I've ordered the book by Peter Ortmann, but will have to translate from German via babelfish to see if it holds any answers.

Pen
He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy...

Re: Lombardische Trieste

#19
Pen wrote:Thanks for starting the wonderful Compare and Contrast Robert - I'd been reading them over at AT, but they'll be easier to find here.

I keep looking through these images - they seem so different from the style of the other Tarot de Marseille, softer, more feminine, the faces sweeter. Could we be looking at the work of a woman artist here? I can't find any additional information about Angela Valla or his printshop - just that single date and place of 1790/Trieste in Kaplan and on the deck owners' site. I've ordered the book by Peter Ortmann, but will have to translate from German via babelfish to see if it holds any answers.

Pen
No real answers, it has two pages about history. It takes it focus on divination ... more or less a not interesting perspective.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Lombardische Trieste

#20
Huck wrote:
No real answers, it has two pages about history. It takes it focus on divination ... more or less a not interesting perspective.
That's a pity, but thanks Huck, you've saved me a lot of work.

Pen
He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy...

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