Re: Lombardische Trieste

#5
's OK Huck, your link took me straight there, it's just that I felt compelled to read through the whole thread after visiting Trionfi. I hadn't too much time last night but will return later...(*)

Pen
He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy...

Re: Lombardische Trieste

#6
I hope you don't mind, I'm just going to look through the deck and share some thoughts...

One of the first things that strikes me about this deck is that it is "late", in that I can see the Tarot de Marseille influence, but I also see that time has allowed some of the details to become changed or corrupted. Another thing that comes to mind is that there are mostly relationships to the Tarot de Marseille I style pattern, but also some items that show Tarot de Marseille II.

Fool:
Image

The dots on the Fools staff are interesting to me. I wonder if they are related to the bells that seem to go missing between the Noblet and the Conver. As usual, there is a lot of confusion as to what the animal is actually doing, and the animal here looks very un-doglike. Not to say it is a cat, only to say that it, I think if we didn't approach this card expecting a dog, we'd be less sure what it is.

Emperor:
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I find his hat with the arrow quite eye-catching. His throne too is interesting in that it has a back unlike the Tarot de Marseille I thrones, but missing the eagle-ish beak-head at the top typically seen in Tarot de Marseille II.

The Pope:
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The Pope is typical of Tarot de Marseille II, with the triple cross rather than the crosier seen on Tarot de Marseille II images.

The Lovers:
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The Lovers is clearly related to the Tarot de Marseille I, the direction and angle of cupid show the relationship. It's unusual to see the extra "beams" coming out of the cupid area, and very funny to see what looks like the blindfold lifted!
Compare to Tarot de Marseille I and Tarot de Marseille II styles:
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The Chariot:
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The Chariot has the scalloped curtains across the top typical of the Tarot de Marseille I style, as well as the double draped curtain in back which is unusual. Traces of this are seen in typical Tarot de Marseille I decks, and Tarot de Marseille II redrew the draped curtains to the front. The posts remind me of the Noblet:
Image


more...
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Lombardische Trieste

#8
Justice:
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Is winged! So which came first?? The throne turning into wings? Or the wings turning into throne?

Hermit:
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Not much to say other than that this might be the friendliest looking hermit I know of. The blonde hair makes him seem younger than I'd typically think of him.

The Wheel of Fortune:
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This is an odd one. The figure at the top of the wheel has kept his upright figure as seen in Vieville and the Tarot de Marseille I rather than becoming a "sphinx". Yet the animal on the left has been so distorted that he has lost his body and his tail has become a flame on a pillar. He almost seems to be at the bottom of the wheel coming up, rather than riding the wheel.

The Devil:
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The profile of the two minions reminds me of the Besançon devil.
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The Tower:
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I'm a fan of the little arrow at the end of the lightening bolt.

The Moon:
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Tarot de Marseille II styled full-faced moon. The lines around the moon again remind me of the Besançon:
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The Sun:
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The Sun is interesting in that the two figures look like boys as on the Tarot de Marseille II, but also look full grown and dressed, which makes me think of the Tarot de Marseille I.

The Judgement:
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Is striking. Well, the size of the angel is very striking compared to typical Tarot de Marseille versions. I think this goes back to the early Italian decks which called the card The Angel and emphasised the angel rather than Judgement.
This from a Bolonese (sigh.. ) deck:
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The World:
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What a strange World! The bottom of the animals appear as in the Tarot de Marseille I cards, here shown as Sforza Castle, Vieville, Dodal, and Conver:


The figure is really hard to understand. It looks like a woman based on the hair, and seems to be holding a cape or scarf, and then there is the little green line across the groin, it's almost an image in-between a Tarot de Marseille I and Tarot de Marseille II! Very complicated indeed!
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Lombardische Trieste

#9
Huck wrote:As already noted,
these are similar

http://trionfi.com/m/d00586.htm ... Berti, Bologna 18th century
http://trionfi.com/m/d02062.htm .... unknown, Milan, 1830

though, thr colors differ and the Fool is a little different
Thanks Huck, I was just going through them for the iconography and general impressions and thoughts rather than trying to suggest anything in particular about them compared to the other similar decks. Sometimes I just enjoy noting the similarities and differences, and sharing the thoughts that come to mind when I look at images. There are also similarities to the Zoni, and also even to the Krebs Tarot de Marseille. I think we have to accept that there was a LOT of copying, sharing, stealing and selling going on with these designs!
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Lombardische Trieste

#10
Robert, I love your observations and comparisons.

I wonder, can we date this deck with any accuracy? Where does it stand in the Tarot de Marseille chronology? And why all those carefully? placed red spots? The faces in this deck are sweeter than those of most other Tarot de Marseille too - perhaps that's why it's so appealing.

A lot of differences with this deck that might repay careful looking. I noticed that the 'tonsure' (if that's what it was meant to represent) on the Judgement card has been altered to a stylish bun, and that Justice has a bare breast (the milk of human kindness perhaps?). And is that the germ of a star in the Hermit's lantern?

Robert wrote:
I think we have to accept that there was a LOT of copying, sharing, stealing and selling going on with these designs!
The larger part of my brain knows that's true, but there's a very small section that can't stop looking for something more meaningful...

Pen
He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy...

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