Re: The Devil Stands on...

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SteveM wrote:I am pretty certain i have seen it described as an anvil in some of my books on tarot, but they are not with me at the moment...
"The devil's pedestal, to which the imps are tied, appears to be an anvil..." says Nathan Cate in the appendix to his 'Sanctuary of the Gods' p.386. (2000)*

Dressé à demi nu sur une boule couleur chair, dont la moitié s'enfonce dans un socle ou une enclume rouge à six couches superposées, le Diable, ...
Dictionnaire des symboles: mythes, rêves, coutumes, gestes, formes, figures, couleurs, nombres
By Jean Chevalier, Alain Gheerbrant, Marian Berlewi
Published by Seghers, 1973


De même, l'arcane XV du tarot représente traditionnellement le démon assis sur
une enclume et avec des ailes de chauve-souris....

Alain Robbe-Grillet
By Roger-Michel Allemand
Published by Seuil, 1997

SteveM
*Thought I had posted this but now can't find it, I think I may have 'edited' a previous post rather that 'quoted' it, so the post was lost.

Re: The Devil Stands on...

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My opinion is that it is only in the Conver that you can begin to interpret it as an anvil.

I think it is not intended to be one, and the other decks don't show anything like an anvil. An anvil is not just any flat surface for hammering hot metal - it has a pointy end, a tapered cone, for horseshoes, a flat center for flat things, and something else at the other end (can't remember at the moment). It has a very distinctive shape which doesn't change much through the ages.

I'm very happy to search for the origin of the interpretation though. And there are very many good ways that it would be appropriate for the Devil to be standing on one, and one could moralize on it as such (as is obviously being done).
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Re: The Devil Stands on...

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I would be hard pressed to disagree with Ross when it comes to documentary sources. With regards to anvils, their continued existence, and hundreds of woodcuts from the period, however, I simply disagree that an anvil has to have the shape that we now consider it to have.

Mediæval anvils varied enormously in shape: from simple (and quite small) square-ish surfaces, to thin curves, to large 'pedestal'-type forms.

Although I have quite a few in one of my files, a quick search for the purposes of replying to this thread yielded some wonderful results... and of significant note is the page A Gallery of Early Blacksmithing. Therein are quite a number of anvils that to my eyes are reflected not only on Tarot de Marseille type-II decks, but Tarot de Marseille type-I decks and some different images I have seen of the devil atop a 'platform'.
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Re: The Devil Stands on...

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Would it change the intended meaning of this card if the devil were on an anvil (as opposed to anything else)? ie a devil is a devil is a devil, whether he is standing on a pedestal or an anvil or a hat box full of plague ridden mice. Was the devil associated with anvils or blacksmiths at that time?
"...he wanted to illustrate with his figures many Moral teachings, and under some difficulty, to bite into bad and dangerous customs, & show how today many Actions are done without goodness and honesty, and are accomplished in ways that are contrary to duty and rightfulness."

Re: The Devil Stands on...

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If there are images of the Devil clearly standing on an anvil, I do not have any copies!

This, however, does not mean that as concept it is far-fetched, for there are relatively common connections between Smiths and their forges and the Devil - from St Dunstan and the Devil to relatively well-known tales such as those of Volundr (or Volund), this latter at times somewhat identified with the Devil (and having similar tones to Hephæsteus).

Even the Auzon Casket, by the way, depicts a scene split in two: on the left from Volundr, on the right the adoration of the Magi. This dichotomy may indicate opposites, and hence in a way further connect and identify the forge/anvil with devilish engagements.

I was trying to find a reference I once had that makes close connections between smiths (and hence the forge and the anvil) with the Devil, and simply cannot find it. What an internet search did uncover, however, is the following paragraph from a 'The Smith And The Devil':
With the possible exceptions of the wolf, the raven and the crone, no one has a closer mythological connection with malevolence than the smith. One of the archetypes of northern European folklore is Wayland, the divine but evil blacksmith tutored by the trolls. He was maimed (becoming lame, like Hephaestus, the smith-god of the Greeks) and imprisoned by the legendary King Niduth, who forced him to use his magical skills to make trinkets for the court. The vengeful Wayland [ie, Volundr] lured the king’s children into his forge, raped his daughter, killed his sons and turned their skulls into goblets from which the unwitting king drank. Then he fashioned himself a pair of wings and flew away cackling with delight. Throughout northern Europe his unquiet wight is said to haunt the Neolithic burial mounds reputed to be his smithies.
(Strictly, the story does not seem to suggest that he lured the children, but rather an episode presented itself in which the acts described took place.)

In terms of the anvil, it is of course clearly associated with the forge, and the forge with fire, and hence a connection to the fires of hell. Numerous images of Hell depict devils with fire-tongs and, at times, even showing forges... but must admit that I do not have an image of hell in which is a sword-forge (more on this in a second) upon which stands a/the Devil.

Going back to the image on Tarot de Marseille cards as anvil, it is not any kind of anvil, but the larger 'flat' variety also used for the making of swords. The Tarot de Marseille type-I shows more a forked prong that he holds. In the Tarot de Marseille type-II, however, it even seems that he holds (in his bare hand) a blade of steel flaming, as may indeed happen at the forge, adding to the way that this may also have been considered and seen in earlier times.

Perhaps I've been seeing the item upon which the Devil stands as an anvil for so long that for me it has become too much of an acquired and 'unquestioned' way-of-seeing... so look forward to further discussion on this topic!
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Re: The Devil Stands on...

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prudence wrote:Would it change the intended meaning of this card if the devil were on an anvil (as opposed to anything else)? ie a devil is a devil is a devil, whether he is standing on a pedestal or an anvil or a hat box full of plague ridden mice. Was the devil associated with anvils or blacksmiths at that time?
I brought it up, generally, because of my amusement at being so surprised, and the reminder it was to me that what might seems "there" to me might not be there at all. And this came up because I was thinking of following up with what Ross had said years ago about the Tarot de Marseille Devil being a particularly unique card. So... "let's search for the Tarot de Marseille by finding a Devil on an Anvil elsewhere", led to "You mean you don't see the Anvil?"

I personally have no point to prove with it, if it's not an anvil that's absolutely fine... but I thought it might make an interesting thread.. and who knows... maybe we'll find something!

Re: The Devil Stands on...

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The closest I have, by the way (and glad I actually kept the reference for a change), is of the following anvil:

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The image appears on Esthétique et mystères des outils anciens. The description reads:
cette enclume a une forme de table pour mettre le travail du forgeron sous la protection de Dieu, à l'abri des mauvaises influences. Le personnage en bas, c'est le diable (il est en bas !). Quand le forgeron commençait son travail, il donnait un grand coup de marteau sur le nez du diable, ce qui explique le nez cassé de celui-ci!
quick translation:
This anvil has the shape of a table on which to the smith may place his work under God's protection, protected from nefarious incluences. The figure below is the devil (it is below!). When the smith begins his work, he swung a heavy beat with his hammer upon the devil's nose, which explains his broken nose!
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Re: The Devil Stands on...

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jmd wrote:The closest I have, by the way (and glad I actually kept the reference for a change), is of the following anvil:

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This anvil has the shape of a table on which to the smith may place his work under God's protection, protected from nefarious incluences. The figure below is the devil (it is below!). When the smith begins his work, he swung a heavy beat with his hammer upon the devil's nose, which explains his broken nose!
Great image J!
Banging the devil's nose, perhaps related it the superstition of a smithy banging the anvil three times prior to starting work proper to 'drive off the devil'.