Re: The Devil Stands on...

#31
Fauvelus wrote: May I provide a somehow iconography-based hypothesis for the pedestal where our devil is standing.
It seems to me that the painter wanted to figure the devil as a pagan divinity (no wicca involved, I swear !) :

As a matter of fact, the medieval iconography uses to depict pagan gods (that is idol of pagan deities) as humanoid figures standing on columns or short pedestals :

Look for instance this picture of Goddess Isis worshipped by two followers (slightly reminiscent of the little chained devils on the card by the way) : the deity is standing on a capital-like pedestal (12th century greek manuscript):

http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/Visualiseur?D ... imageseule

Another of standing-on-column idol from a french XIVth century manuscript :

http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/Visualiseur?D ... imageseule

Seems to me that this representation of the devil must have been derived from a symbolic figure of the sin of idolatry.
Hello Fauvelus.
I like this "iconography-based" approach.
I wonder if it could be possible to find images that are closer in time to the Tarot de Marseille cards we are discussing (the two images you propose are a few centuries older than these cards). I think it is likely that the image of the idol standing on the pedestal was adapted to the devil before tarot cards: maybe there are other examples of this kind of image in which the idol is replaced by the devil. I have been looking for examples, but with no results yet :)

Marco

Re: The Devil Stands on...

#32
Hello Marco !
In search for a depiction which match more closely the tarot period, I came across a painting by Niccolo Rondinelli (c. 1468- C. 1520) called "Saint Barthelemy putting down the idol of Astaroth".
Especially interesting in the fact that the near-eastern deity Astaroth was a well-known name for a devil appearing (among others) in Mystery Plays.
(As a matter of fact, as much as we can judge on this reproduction, the idol on the left seems indeed to wear horns) :
http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/image/j ... 3956_p.jpg

... Yet, It is quite an early reference since the devil-standing-on-pedestal type appears only (as far as I know) circa 1650 in the Noblet deck.
Maybe, one should search for depiction of "Idolatry" in some XVI-XVIIth century emblem books ?

Re: The Devil Stands on...

#33
The Iconologia by Cesare Ripa was first published in 1593 and it is not exactly an emblem book. There "Idolatry" is described as:
"A blind woman, upon her knees, offering incense to the statue of a brazen bull".

http://emblem.libraries.psu.edu/Ripa/Im ... pa039b.htm
http://emblem.libraries.psu.edu/Ripa/Im ... pa039a.htm
http://www.humi.keio.ac.jp/~matsuda/rip ... 0296w.html

It would also be interesting to understand something more about the two devils enchained to the pedestal. Did they originally represent damned souls and were later converted to Devils? Did they represent people worshipping the devil?

The Malleus Maleficarum says: "Now there are two ways in which devils can, as has been said, raise up this kind of images.Sometimes they work without enchaining the human reason, as has been said in the matter of
temptation, and the example of voluntary imagination. But sometimes the use of reason is entirely
chained up; and this may be exemplified by certain naturally defective persons, and by madmen
and drunkards. Therefore it is no wonder that devils can, with God's permission, chain up the
reason; and such men are called delirious, because their senses have been snatched away by the
devil." (Part I, Question VII, "Whether Witches can Sway the Minds of Men to Love or Hatred.")
http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/downl ... crobat.pdf

Marco

Re: The Devil Stands on...

#34
It would also be interesting to understand something more about the two devils enchained to the pedestal. Did they originally represent damned souls and were later converted to Devils? Did they represent people worshipping the devil?
I think that this very iconography is quite uncommon itself : the only occurence of such depiction (two naked characters tied to a rope by the neck next to a devil) I'm aware of is to be found on a 12th century capital of Issoire church, France :
Image


In that very case, as you pointed out, the enchained characters are damned souls. But no pedestal is involved...

Re: The Devil Stands on...

#35
Fauvelus wrote:the only occurence of such depiction (two naked characters tied to a rope by the neck next to a devil) I'm aware of is to be found on a 12th century capital of Issoire church, France :
Image
That’s a great image Fauvelus, thanks for posting it!


E
E
What’s honeymoon salad? Lettuce alone
Don’t look now, mayonnaise is dressing!

Thank you Fauvelus!

#36
I agree with Enrique, this image is great!
Thank you Fauvelus!
What is the source of this image? Is this a picture you took in Issoire?

So, the two "small devils" are damned souls. It is interesting that they present some animal traits, but this is not different from what we see in the wheel. The reason can be simply to underline the beastly nature of sin.
The pedestal could simply be a symbol of the victory of the Devil on the damned. Focussing on the detail of the pedestal was taking me out of my way, while this capital makes perfectly clear the overall meaning of the Tarot de Marseille devil cards.

Another example of devils binding the damned can be seen in Luca Signorelli (Orvieto, 1500 ca):
http://www.wga.hu/art/s/signorel/brizio/3/4damned2.jpg
I think this kind of image is rather common, but the image posted by Fauvelus is exceptional, because it perfectly fits the symmetrical structure that we see in the cards.

The deer antlers are another interesting (and possibly misleading) detai. I don't think that deer antlers are common in devil images, at least in Italian art.

I have find what follows in Carlo Ginzburg ("Ecstasies. Deciphering the Witches' Sabbath", New York, 1991, ISBN 0-226-29693-8. First published in Italian as "Storia notturna: Una decifrazione del Sabba", 1989.)
Caesarius of Arles, in the VI century, condemned the tradition of animal masks (used during the carnival?).

"[alii] cervulum facientes", "alii vestiuntur pellibus pecudum, alii assumunt capita bestiarum", "gaudentes et exultantes, si taliter se in ferinas species transformaverint, ut homines non esse videantur".
"Some change themselves into deer, ... some wear the skins of sheep, ... some the heads of beasts. ... They are happy and exult when they transform themselves into animals in such a way that they do not seem to be human."

The thesis of Ginzburg is that the origin of sabbath includes traces of a very ancient animal cult. I attach an image from a III Century BC chinese sculpture (fig. 11 in Ginzburg's book).

I wonder if the pagan masks condemned by Caesarius of Arles could have introduced the theme of deer antlers as an attribute of the Devil. Arles is not so far from Marseille, but Caesarius was writing one thousand years before Tarot was invented :)

Marco
Attachments
deerman.jpg

Re: The Devil Stands on...

#37
Fauvelus wrote: In that very case, as you pointed out, the enchained characters are damned souls. But no pedestal is involved...
PS: maybe the origin of the Tarot de Marseille devil was a medieval capital similar to that in Issoire posted by Fauvelus. Could the pedestal be a simplified representation of the column on which the devil could be seen?

Re: The Devil Stands on...

#39
marco wrote:
Fauvelus wrote: In that very case, as you pointed out, the enchained characters are damned souls. But no pedestal is involved...
PS: maybe the origin of the Tarot de Marseille devil was a medieval capital similar to that in Issoire posted by Fauvelus. Could the pedestal be a simplified representation of the column on which the devil could be seen?
I had the same thought.

What if the devil is standing at the top of a pillar?


Best,


EE
What’s honeymoon salad? Lettuce alone
Don’t look now, mayonnaise is dressing!

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