Re: Bolognese sequence

#21
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:Hi Steve, Robert -

"Copyist's errors" are demonstrable, and Robert offered one - the Bull loses his halo. There are countless others that I'm sure Robert could rattle off. The alternative, that there was a message in every line of every woodcut, is absurd.
You agree with Robert then that the girdle of leaves is a copyists error? I do not deny that there are copyists errors, my objection is the use of that argument to dismiss anything that does not fit one's personal preferences or understanding in favour of one's particular paradigm.
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote: I have long noted the 1 Corinthians passages as proof-texts for the sequence -
I note it too, not only in relation to the sequence but also in reference to the representation of Christ as New Adam with girdle of leaves.
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:Hi Steve, Robert -

Can we move the discussion of the Tarot de Marseille to another thread?

...Not a discussion for here, please.
Fine by me.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Béziers Jesus

#22
As noted several posts back, I've moved this discussion about Christ on the Tarot de Marseille World Card to this thread as it seemed the most appropriate place to continue the discussion.

--

I didn't realise that I used "copyist error" that often, and certainly hadn't connected the usage to trying to prove points that I favour. In the case of the Halo on the Tarot de Marseille... certainly we can see the Bull has lost the halo on the Tarot de Marseille II? Steve, you are a master of finding textural references, and I swear to God after five years of experience with this I wouldn't be surprised to have you find some reference to "And the bull shall have no glory when...", but I guess I'm just always oriented to the art on the cards themselves rather than to external references. To me, I see the Vieville, I see the Noblet, I see the Dodal, and I see the Conver... and I can see a haloed Christ figure surrounded by the four Evangelists turning into a dancer (fortune?) surrounded by four creatures, three with halos. This in the course of about 100 years. Considering that the Noblet is from 1650 and we assume that the Tarot de Marseille was created at least by 1500 that's another 150 years before we even have the figures we have now for similar changes to have occurred.

When I look at those four cards, I'm pretty convinced that it is Christ on the cards and that he changes. I thought it was Christ originally because I find the four evangelists and the haloed figure on the Vieville pretty convincing. I don't know why it isn't more clearly Christ, but I can see him changing even in the small sample of cards within a short period of time. I am not sure if it is intentional or not. I don't know why it happened. But I'm pretty sure it did happen.

When Ross posted the Béziers Jesus, that seemed a major addition to this as, up until then the argument was generally "It can't be Christ because Christ in Glory is never pictured nearly naked", well... here.. Ross found an example, and a wonderful example at that.

I think that the case is pretty convincing.

Here's what I said in my post:
robert wrote:I'd like to see him in leaves too if it can be found, but I feel that with the Vieville we have a good version with the halo, and we know that halos can disappear because we can see it happen on the Bull evangelist on the World between Tarot de Marseille I and Tarot de Marseille II.

Even the leaves don't bother me much, I think the girdle on the image that Ross found is a damn good match, and it is possible that even the "earliest Tarot de Marseille decks" that we have are already late enough that that detail was not understood and was seen as leaves rather than a girdle. I think it's pretty convincing with the four evangelists, the halo on the Vieville, and the image that Ross found to feel pretty confident that it was probably Christ on the earliest Tarot de Marseille World.
So, yeah, show me a Christ in leaves and I'll be even more delighted, no problem, I really don't care. YOU care because you think this is Christ as New Adam, I have no investment one way or the other. If you can find some images of Christ as new Adam that are as convincing as the one that Ross has posted of Christ on the tabernacle, I'll be happy to say "Yup, Christ as Second Adam". At this point, I'm just happy to see more and more evidence that this is Christ that we are seeing on the early cards.

So for me, that Halo isn't an issue. I DO think that the Bull lost a halo between the Dodal type I and the Conver type II, not the other way around. And I think it VERY likely, more so now with this additional figure, that what we see on the Vieville is the best representation of what was also on the early Tarot de Marseille, a robed figure of Christ surrounded by the four evangelists.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Béziers Jesus

#23
robert wrote:So, yeah, show me a Christ in leaves and I'll be even more delighted, no problem, I really don't care. YOU care because you think this is Christ as New Adam, I have no investment one way or the other.
I cared because it is a detail I think requires an explanation some what more satisfactory than one that dismisses it as a copyists error. The dismissal of such details when they do not fit preferred paradigms as errors or decoration I find weak and unsatisfactory.

The Corinthians quote would perhaps explain both sequence and an explanation of the leaves in reference to Christ as Heavenly Man, new Adam. While such an explanation would support my theory of the juggler as old Adam, that is not what led me to it. What led me to it was a legitimate search for an explanation of the incongruous. Yes I care about such things, that you really don't care and would rather dismiss the inconguous whenever it does not fit into your prefered paradigm is pretty poor investment in a would be historian.

But MJH was right on consideratian, I am really bored of this trite shite. I am off to join Eugene for a while.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Béziers Jesus

#24
The Béziers Jesus is from the "Ecce Homo" genre - the episode where Jesus is beaten with a reed, crowned with a crown of thorns, and given a cloak, all in a mock coronation (in all the Gospels, but primarily John 19:1-15). Then he is led before the people and Pilate says "Behold the Man" (Ecce homo).

Vieville, Sforza Castle, Noblet and Dodal seem to show this, but more "triumphantly" (Insteand of having his hands tied or submissively together, they are spread and he actively wields the sceptre). Vieville even shows him completely nude (in typical Vieville fashion, even with a suggestive placing of the baton), while the Sforza Castle one is damaged in that part (although it looks like leaves to me). I'd guess that the leaf covering was added for the same reason that a leaf was added to nude sculpture, from simple prudery.
Image

Re: Béziers Jesus

#25
I found an image yesterday that reminded me of our Tarot de Marseille World Jesus Christ. I was in the chapel at All Souls College, and they had an triptych behind the altar with the third image of Jesus Christ in the Harrowing of Hell (I'd assume with the broken down door, the demon below, and what looks like Old Testament characters).

In this case, the robe seems to cover what I assume is a risen Jesus, similar I think to our Tarot de Marseille image.

The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Béziers Jesus

#26
Wonderful Image that started this thread.

It is my belief that the Bezier Jesus is the Resurrected Christ and was usual for that time to have a Cross standard bearing a banner, but also common was Jesus holding a Bulrush- the connection between Jesus and Moses.
Deut. 18:18 says: I will send them a prophet like you from among their own people; I will tell him what to say, and he will tell the people everything I command.

This is what he is holding in the Bezier Jesus. The Bulrush has been used as a symbol of faithfulness and humility in obedience to Christ because the Bulrush is a common plant that grows in clusters near water, also because of its association with the infant Moses- it may also point to the place of salvation as in Moses of Exodus Chapter 2.

Sometimes early images showed Jesus with the Cross Banner (over coming the Cross) and in his other hand a palm frond. A lily would have indicated his Baptism by John the Baptist, not his resurrection. Always was his crown of thorns and the wound from the spear.
There is a bronze plaque in Sienna- I cannot find the image to link- that is very similar to the Bezier Jesus.
~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: Béziers Jesus

#27
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:This tabernacle, from Monaco (?) looks promising, but I can't get much detail -
http://www.monaco-victoria.com/pic_up/0000.jpg

This one too, in Bergouey (near Mont de Marsan on the Atlantic side) -
http://eglises-landes.cef.fr/eglises/mo ... rnacle.JPG

The page describes the Christ as an "Ecce Homo" -
"Le tabernacle, posé sur un autel simplement galbé, est tout à fait classique par sa conception et il peut dater du début du xviiie siècle : un coffret eucharistique, évasé sur les côtés et à la porte ornée d'un Ecce Homo,"

(The tabernacle, resting on a simply curved altar, is entirely classical in conception and can be dated to the beginning of the 18th century: a eucharistic coffret, flared on the sides and the door decorated with an Ecce Homo)

http://eglises-landes.cef.fr/eglises/mo ... rgouey.htm
To Ross G. R. Caldwell
I was surprised and happy you linked to my tabernacle. I just wanted to let you know that you can see this tabernacle in our show room in Aubagne, Provence and it it to sell.
I have all the history about it because "la chapelle de saint Jean de Garguier " was interested in it and made all the researches about it. It is a museum piece . It was bought in Avignon in 1952 ...
If you are interested , don't hesitate to contact me through my site :
http://www.enseignedegersaint.typepad.fr
Thanks
Mélanie

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