Hi, Robert,

robert wrote:Personally, I'm not convinced with your suggested interpretation for the sequence,

LOL -- there are presumably tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, of Tarot exegetes, all of whom would dispute my reading. I know of no one who accepts it in detail., so that part goes without saying.

But Fortune in the context of Love, Virtues, Time, Death, etc. seems significantly different than Fortune triumphing over all the world, don't you think? These are two different ways to tell the story of Fortune's influence in the world, and different descriptive terms and artistic and literary cognates (like Boccaccio's Amorosa VIsione) come to mind for the latter.

robert wrote:(or that Tarot de Marseille sequence should be considered as standard, for that matter),

Well, it depends what you mean by "standard", but in this case I didn't say anything about a standard. I was simply giving an example of the need to take the specifics of a card's context into account. In this case, the Fortune which is conflated with the World is a very different subject than the Fortune which comes in the middle of the deck, and you seemed to be ignoring that obvious and crucial fact, talking not about Imperatrix Mundi (which explains the card) but instead about Fortuna Inconstans (so to speak) which explains another card.

Context counts.

Each deck design, each change in iconography and sequence, must be taken in its own right. I've been strongly arguing that case for a decade, and I'm still waiting to hear a good reason to ignore the context.

robert wrote:I think one of the most interesting things on this card is the animals at the top which pretty much match the Tarot of Paris. In fact, this is the only card in the deck that has those animals, while the rest of the cards don't have them (unlike the Paris, where it is standard). Isn't that odd? Why would this one card have the animals? what is the connection?

Tarot cards routinely reflect conflated meanings, combining traditional Tarot subjects with some secondary subject and compromising the iconography in the process, so I'm not sure why this is odd.

Great pictures, BTW.

Best regards,
Michael

mjhurst wrote:Hi, Robert,

robert wrote:Personally, I'm not convinced with your suggested interpretation for the sequence,

LOL -- there are presumably tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, of Tarot exegetes, all of whom would dispute my reading. I know of no one who accepts it in detail., so that part goes without saying.

But Fortune in the context of Love, Virtues, Time, Death, etc. seems significantly different than Fortune triumphing over all the world, don't you think? These are two different ways to tell the story of Fortune's influence in the world, and different descriptive terms and artistic and literary cognates (like Boccaccio's Amorosa VIsione) come to mind for the latter.

robert wrote:(or that Tarot de Marseille sequence should be considered as standard, for that matter),

Well, it depends what you mean by "standard", but in this case I didn't say anything about a standard. I was simply giving an example of the need to take the specifics of a card's context into account. In this case, the Fortune which is conflated with the World is a very different subject than the Fortune which comes in the middle of the deck, and you seemed to be ignoring that obvious and crucial fact, talking not about Imperatrix Mundi (which explains the card) but instead about Fortuna Inconstans (so to speak) which explains another card.

Context counts.

Each deck design, each change in iconography and sequence, must be taken in its own right. I've been strongly arguing that case for a decade, and I'm still waiting to hear a good reason to ignore the context.

robert wrote:I think one of the most interesting things on this card is the animals at the top which pretty much match the Tarot of Paris. In fact, this is the only card in the deck that has those animals, while the rest of the cards don't have them (unlike the Paris, where it is standard). Isn't that odd? Why would this one card have the animals? what is the connection?

Tarot cards routinely reflect conflated meanings, combining traditional Tarot subjects with some secondary subject and compromising the iconography in the process, so I'm not sure why this is odd.

Great pictures, BTW.

Best regards,
Michael

Hi Michael,

Sorry if I sounded confrontational, I didn't mean to be, I just meant to say that I'm still looking at all of the orders and, I completely agree, they certainly seem to have changes to tell slightly different stories. Nor was I trying to prove a "point" on anything other than to simply discuss and explore.

I'm not sure (Surprise!) how to interpret Fortune on the World card, and, in this case I'm curious to see if there are connections with this style back to Italy? And also, I think it is interesting to consider why Vieville didn't use this model, but used a Tarot de Marseille model instead... and also, I think it's interesting to question whether the Tarot de Marseille model (like Noblet, Vieville, Dodal, Payen) is Fortune (I think it probably isn't), and whether the Tarot de Marseille II model (like Chosson, Conver and Madenié) is Fortune, (I think it probably is). That alone raises the question of the Tarot de Marseille I models are are not only graphically different, but also a different figure on the card. If the Tarot de Marseille II is Fortune, does it make sense for fortune to be surrounded by the four evangelists?

While she may be the "Imperatrix Mundi" by standing on the world, she is still being blown by the winds of fate, and holds her sail, so she is certainly still a fickle Empress at that. I suppose we would agree that the message here is that this world is ruled by a fickle fate, and again, that the safe and real security comes from not this world, but the next?

This Fortune is certainly not like the images that Ross provides of Providence, where she looks almost like our typical Empress, add a cross on to her orb and there you go! Here she is from an early Bologna (courtesy of our Ross):



That said, when looking at the coin more closely I see a wind blowing her sail, and then there is writing to the right side, does that say something about Providence?

hmm looking at the images again, I realize it was the Tarot de Paris that has the hairy figure on the World card.

The sail s/he is holding makes me think about the Greek's depiction of Tyche who sometimes holds a ship's rudder, not as a sign of her fickleness, but to bestow blessings on commerce and trade.

It is odd that the only card with the animals bookending the card's number is the World. Very funky and mishmash-y.

prudence wrote:hmm looking at the images again, I realize it was the Tarot de Paris that has the hairy figure on the World card.

The sail s/he is holding makes me think about the Greek's depiction of Tyche who sometimes holds a ship's rudder, not as a sign of her fickleness, but to bestow blessings on commerce and trade.

It is odd that the only card with the animals bookending the card's number is the World. Very funky and mishmash-y.

Hi Prudence,

Yes, I think it is very odd that the Bodet has the one card like the Paris with the animals in the top number area.

I've not explored the Tyche connection for years, and had forgotten about it, although I think I remember discussing it on AT, I just didn't realise that she was considered a bestower of blessings as such, I thought she was also considered fickle? I'll have to do some research!

I'm not sure about the hairy part, it might just be the method of shadowing? Hmmm.

well, I had a look at Tyche while I was creating the Wheel of Fortune card, and found that she was much less a fickle persona than the depictions or descriptions of Fortuna.... she had no blindfold, and was only mentioned in a poem or something as perhaps being blind (by a guy who was pissed off about his fortunes in life?) Her rudder was not meant as a sign of her fickleness, at least that is how I read it. Not that I think she is actually relevant to the image we have here, but here is a link to some info about her
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... G%26um%3D1

Hello companions, I would like to know what is the meaning of the ribon ¨sol fama¨ in the Belgian and Vieville decks.

Cheers!

lamort wrote:Hello companions, I would like to know what is the meaning of the ribon ¨sol fama¨ in the Belgian and Vieville decks.

Cheers!

I asked that same question to Ross just the other day. I was looking up the translation, and surprisingly Wikipedia says this when talking about Sol Fama on Temperance:

In the Flemish decks there are certain peculiarities as well. The Hanged Man is shown still pendant but right-side up. Temperance bears the motto FAMA SOL (Latin > "The Rumored or Omened Day") in a scroll, probably counceling patience until the day of their deliverance from Spain.

Deliverance from Spain? Hmmm. I guess I need another history lesson. But I *do* find the idea of "rumoured day" very interesting, it makes me think of the Tarot de Marseille "angel", and wonder if there is a connection there?

Ross, however, had a very different interpretation of the words, and I'll let him tell us so that I don't screw it up.

I have taken it to be "fame alone", reminiscient of the phrase "per fama sol" (by fame/reputation alone).

It occurs in a few 16th century poetic compositions that way.This one is from an Emblemata collection, talking about the vanity and fleetingness of life (and so seems appropriate for figure coming right after Death)

"O fantasma, che in aria si risolue,
O nome, che per fama sol rimbomba;"

(O phantom, that returns to air,
O name, that by fame alone resounds)

(Q. Horatii Flacci Emblemata / Otto Vaenius (Otto Vaenius' commentary on Horace's Odes, I take it, in an emblem book form -
http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/vaen001quin01 ... 1_0104.htm )

I still think it makes more sense than taking it as Latin, but "sol" (the sun) can mean day in a poetic sense, so I guess there's no way to know.

Also Alciato's naming this card "Fama" supports the idea that it is posthumous fame being talked about.

Thanks to both to respond, indeed in Spanish SOL FAMA it would be literally SUN REPUTATION... perhaps it makes reference to a ¨shining reputation¨?

Hi all,

As an aside relating to my comments about the Noblet & Vieville Bateleur, I notice that the wand-hand of this Bateleur is also backward. This seems to be a tradition with some card makers and this particular card.