Re: Jean Baptiste Madenie back card

#11
EUGIM wrote:Another point of interest I think is about the XXI card.
Here we have clearly a woman at the center of the mandorla,as we see at Conver,and not at Noblet and Dodal,and also not at both Payen and also Chafard which is the closest to Conver being of 1747
So again a Tarot de Marseille 1 pattern in 1709
No. The woman in the middle with scarf is Tarot de Marseille II. Depending on who you call the earliest.. Chosson, Madenié or whomever.. that is the oldest Tarot de Marseille II.

The oldest Tarot de Marseille I style.. a figure with a cape instead of a scarf, and perhaps it being a man, is the Noblet and the Vieville. 1650. (although, I think the World card from Sforza Castle is, if not older, based on an older card) Next in line is either the Dodal or the Payen in the early 1700s.

The Chafard is, as you say, late.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Jean Baptiste Madenie back card

#14
EUGIM wrote:Absolutely agreed with you Robert..
I ever saw a triangle between both Madenie,Conver and Chosson.
As for example between Dodal,both Payen and Chafard.

Just my thoughts here till now.
What you're seeing is the differences between Tarot de Marseille I and Tarot de Marseille II. Once you start looking, you'll notice differences on many of the cards... from the drapes on the Chariot to the face on the Moon, to the hat on the King of Coins... we are dealing with two styles of deck that, at least at some point, began to merge together in many later decks.

Conver is easily the most famous Tarot de Marseille II, but as you are seeing, he's actually late and based on someone else. I too would like to know what the oldest Tarot de Marseille II is, at this point it would seem likely to be the P. Madenié or the Chosson.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Jean Baptiste Madenie back card

#15
Dear Robert:
Can you remember when we both were agree two years ago that some details just "jump" and defies all classifications in terms of time ?

That is why I remarked that we have here an amazing deck with a clear Tarot de Marseille 2 pattern between Noblet and Dodal at 1709.

My tickets for Pierre Madenie Gentelmens !!!

Just for me a Bass,cold never iced please...
Or may be a Samuel Smith.
Or a 12 years Macallan.

Cheers
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

Re: Jean Baptiste Madenie back card

#16
EUGIM wrote:Dear Robert:
Can you remember when we both were agree two years ago that some details just "jump" and defies all classifications in terms of time ?

That is why I remarked tha twe have here an amazing deck with a clear Tarot de Marseille 2 pattern between Noblet and Dodal at 1709.

My tickets for Pierre Madenie Gentelmens !!!

Just for me a Bass,cold never iced please...
Or may be a Samuel Smith.

Cheers
The Dodal could be before 1709, as far as I know the dating is between 1701-1713, so it could still be older than P. Madenié. Also, the Payen, while at 1713, could very well be their dad's block, Jean Payen from Marseille, so that might be older too.

I think it is critical to remember that we only have a few decks out of what was likely to be many other decks that have been lost. It's wrong, I think, to assume for instance that the Conver is based directly on the Chosson or the Madenié, there might have been other decks that it is based on and we will never know it because they don't survive. It's like looking at two or three bones of a skeleton and trying to put the body together. The dates aren't to be entirely trusted either, we know that blocks were used, and then resold, and used under a different name, so that even when the "date" is older, a later deck may actually be "older" because the older pattern is preserved. For me, it's smarter to look at the details of the deck and to compare them to each other, and to other decks, and try to see the patterns of changes as they happened over time.

Again, look at the Conver Chariot, this from the Bicentennial, who is VT???
Image
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Jean Baptiste Madenie back card

#18
Btw Robert please...

* Camoin ???

-That cheapest version also ?

-See again as you surely knows the VII card please...

Both dogs or whatever you wanna want it,with the same colour ??????????????????????????????

*Where,till when ??????????????????????

-Please for your safe,dance a cha cha ...
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

Re: Jean Baptiste Madenie back card

#19
EUGIM wrote:Btw Robert please...

* Camoin ???

-That cheapest version also ?

-See again as you surely knows the VII card please...

Both dogs or whatever you wanna want it,with the same colour ??????????????????????????????

*Where,till when ??????????????????????

-Please for your safe,dance a cha cha ...
Check your other Convers, what intials do they have on the Chariot?

And BTW, I like the Conver bicentennial. :-bd

I (generally) don't pay attention to colours, I don't think they mean anything.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Jean Baptiste Madenie back card

#20
If you dont pay attention to colours differences some day you will have a crash...

-Please,if anyone colured both with the same colour,which is the reason why ?

-Or may be you you like b&W decks ?

-There is not any problem about it...

* But I can remember you made differences regarding colours somewhere.


:-
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

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